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Post by Elderberry Fucking Fanta on Apr 25, 2010 20:28:54 GMT
It is pretty great, Florence. It is monorail cat.
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By the way, I might get to vote in my local election! Wooh! Two elections in a year, in two different countries!
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Post by Rosie The Red on Apr 25, 2010 21:57:07 GMT
I wish I could vote. Another vote against the Tories would make me feel better. Damn my young age. And for weeks I've seen my tutor as a lovely man but this week he's been casually putting down the Lib-Dems and today confessed he was conservative and my opinion of him fell dramatically . This reminds me of my Guidance lesson. It's a shit, boring, pointless lesson normally, but my teacher this year has made it fun and interesting. The other day we were watching some of the first election debate, and he paused it to explain about left-wing/right-wing/whatever, and started of by saying that 'the Tories have always been seen as being on the right side... yes the RIGHT side.' I was paying that much attention, so I didn't pick up on it until my friend, who I have often over the past weeks discussed the Lib Dems & Tories with, leaned over and nudged me and repeated what he said. It's kind of lowered my view of him, as a person.
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yellowbelly1945
Empress
An Elephant Hawkmoth from my garden, released alive
Posts: 157
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Post by yellowbelly1945 on Apr 25, 2010 22:31:24 GMT
I always wonder what people have against the Conservatives, and thank Florence for her views. As well as being nearly 65 I am a Conservative, and was a Conservative councillor for 19 years. I am also gay, and in favour of same-sex marriage. I believe that people are entitled to their own opinions, but they should get facts right, and not confuse facts with opinions. Yes I'm biased but I don't sling mud. I don't judge anyone's abiloty to do a job on their appearance. Just as the Labour Party has moved away from Clause 4 and nationalisation, so the Conservatives have moved away from the right wing. I consider myself a libertarian, and the Conservative Party to be a centre-right party. It's easy to be selective about Party funding. The Labour Party has rich business donors, including the non-Dom and Privy Councillor Lord Paull. The Lib Dems received £2.4million from a guy later convicted of fraud, but have made no attempts to pay the money back to those who were defrauded. Between elections the majority of donations to the Conservatives come from ordinary members . As for education and background of Conservative supporters I am not untypical. I grew up in a financially poor family of a large Council estate. I went to the local state schools. If we look at the Leadership of political parties, we see Harriet Harman, deputy Leader of Labour, whose uncle was the anti-gay Labour peer, Lord Longford. She went to a private fee-paying school. The LibDem's Nick Clegg, who's ancestors were Russian aristocracy, went to prep school and the fee-paying Westminster School, as did LibDem Chris Huhne. Caroline Lucas, the Leader of the Green Party, also went to an independent fee-paying school. Personally I think every Prime Minister should have had a good education. "The family" policies of the Conservatives specifically include civil partnerships. There are 2 openly gay MPs in the Shadow cabinet. The family policies are based on extensive research about the causes of poverty. See the work of the Centre for Social Justice, an independent think tank set up by former Conservative Leader Iain Duncan Smith: www.centreforsocialjustice.org.uk The tax policies are not directed at the super-rich at all. Some of the policies in the Conservative Party manifesto are: We will stop paying tax credits to better-off families with incomes over £50,000; We will cut government contributions to Child Trust Funds for all but the poorest third of families and families with disabled children; We need to make work pay, so we will keep the minimum wage and work to reduce the very high marginal tax rates faced by many people on low incomes who want to return to work or increase their earnings. To help Britain’s families further, a Conservative government will freeze council tax for two years, in partnership with local councils. We will introduce a health premium – weighting public health funding towards the poorest areas with the worst health outcomes; Education’s real power lies in its ability to transform life chances, but we can’t go on giving the poorest children the worst education. That is why we will introduce a pupil premium – extra funding for children from disadvantaged backgrounds. Historically the ideology of the Conservative Party has been to keep what works, but to change what doesn't. I could never vote Labour, despite their gay-rights policies, because they concentrate all power at Central Government level; they've taken power away from local councils, and created a mass of unelected, unaccountable quangos. I believe, from my involvement in the Conservative Party since 1959 at local, national, and regional level that the next Conservative will restore power to people, to local councils and community groups.
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Post by Lemon Bloody Cola on Apr 25, 2010 22:55:23 GMT
Thanks for your contribution Yellowbelly (shouldn't that be bluebelly? ) I agree, I find the whole "I found out he was a Tory and lost respect for him" type posts a bit.. uncomfortable? I mean I have little time for the Conservative party but I do not believe all people who think differently are defective or morally suspect, we all view the world and its ethics in a unique way. I like to take a "slag off the policies and ideas, not the person" stance. I mean there's things in the Qu'ran that are vastly more objectionable than anything you'd find in any Tory manifesto.. ever, but I don't see a post saying "oh then I found out he was a Muslim and lost ALL respect for him" going done so well.. (though I give religion no special reverence, I just see it as an ideology like conservatism etc, whilst many would erroneously assume a link between anti-Islamic views and racism) So, with that in mind.. You state in your post that you're a libertarian, I pretty much lean that way too and it's hard for me to see how you can be a libertarian and endorse government interference (positive or negative) in people's personal lives. I find it pretty uncomfortable for a government to rubber stamp one way of life (gay or straight) as more valid than any other, as I feel the Tories masturbation over the traditional family unit and DC's constant invocation of "doing the right thing" and living a certain way does. To me the Lib Dems are the closet out of the three main parties to libertarian ideas and the best shot for less intrusive government due to their commitment to civil liberties (my personal number one political issue). If you ask me, vote Labour and you'll get the government's hand in your pocket, vote Tory and you'll get the government in your bedroom.
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Post by Lemon Bloody Cola on Apr 25, 2010 23:03:41 GMT
Also, whereabouts in Bradford are you from?
Wyke boy myself.
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yellowbelly1945
Empress
An Elephant Hawkmoth from my garden, released alive
Posts: 157
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Post by yellowbelly1945 on Apr 25, 2010 23:30:24 GMT
The main interference I endorse is helping to alleviate poverty.
A yellowbelly is a native of Lincolnshire. I was born in a rented house (now demolished under a slum clearance programme) in Lincoln. I went to college in Leeds, worked in Leicestershire, and West Sussex, and then Bradford. I've lived in Thornton for the last 28 years.
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Post by Lemon Bloody Cola on Apr 25, 2010 23:33:46 GMT
Thronton? No way.. You don't know KC by any chance?
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Post by lastgoodbye on Apr 26, 2010 9:43:17 GMT
Yellowbelly, I am seriously glad that someone with a differing political view has come to post on this thread (as fun as it is when everyone agrees). I'm already aware of all the examples from other parties of dodgy expenses or negative views on gay rights, and think they're just as unacceptable (not that someone's uncle having one view means that they do too, that’s ridiculous). Sadly no party is ever going to be without fault, and I’m sorry if I insinuated that the Tories were the only ones who were at fault in these areas. Also, I'm sure the leadership of the party has become more "centre-right" as you say. The two main things that influence my view of the Tories in this area are their gay rights voting record and the fact that I've met and spoken to at length my local Conservative MP, who is a homophobic (actual quote "they should stay behind closed doors") doddery old fool, to put it mildly, who has just cut the funding for the ONLY LGBT support group in the entire constituency (the biggest constituency in the country, and an island.) Which brings me onto my next point. Any party can only highlight the potential policies which they think appeal to the electorate, or to a specific group of people they're trying to sway (be it businessmen, Mumsnet, or a bunch of liberal kids on a forum ), and indeed, every party does this. Therefore I think we all have to rely to a certain extent on each party's track record - as frustrating as that might be to modern Conservatives who want change in the party. I'm always going to be wary of the swathes of old Conservative MP's still sat in their safe seats all over the country, still holding the (what you would argue to be 'old') Conservative views, and voting that way in Parliament – as the stats show. David Cameron can't control the views of his entire party. Also, I don't believe in their family tax policy, or Cameron's obsession with idealising the family unit (or the way he goes on about "values"), because I REALLY don't think it's any of the governments business to dictate our values, or to decide that one way of living is worth more of a reward or is more useful to society than other ways. What about people who don't live in "hardworking families"? What about all the dozens different forms of family other than the nuclear, with their different financial arrangements, who won't be able to benefit from this proposed tax as much? It's the responsibility of government to help everybody equally, not just to favour the Hardworking Families, or Our Brave Soldiers, or the Common Sense Tax Paying Majority, no matter how good that sounds on speeches and in manifestos. Every time David Cameron mentions 'returning to our great countries core values' on my TV screen or radio I yell MY VALUES ARE NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS. That pretty much sums it up. As for the educational policy you mentioned, about introducing a pupil premium for poor students – chucking money at a problem this complex and deep rooted doesn't make it go away (and we've all got to be a bit sceptical about how any party is going to pay for all the policies they propose in the current climate anyway). Personally I don't think the Conservatives even come close to having the right ideas, experience, perspective etc. to sort out the problem of education in poor state schools, and if God forbid they came into power, this would be one of the things I’d be most fearful about. This is partly because of their promise to only let graduates with a 1:1 degree train to be teachers, making the profession more elitist when we have a huge shortage of teachers in failing schools already, fucking great idea. How well you do in your degree has really no bearing on how good at teaching you’re going to be. My GCSE English teacher is a good example of this: she failed her GCSE's, and was trying to get a job as a Business teacher when she got plonked in English because we had a shortage of teachers there: I came away with A's because (although she was in no way an intellectual as the Tories may have preferred) she KNEW how to teach a bunch of kids in a bad state school and did a fantastic job, simple as. The Tories can talk about changing education for the poorest students, but they simply don't have a clue how to do it (possibly because they all went to Eton ). Only this morning the Conservatives have announced another education policy – to allow parents to set up their own schools if they’re dissatisfied with their local ones, and for those schools to be funded by the council. This policy can only possibly benefit middle class parents who have the cultural capital, knowledge, financial security and spare time to carry out such an endeavour, and any argument to the contrary is completely ridiculous in my eyes. I actually cringed when I heard this policy. So these poor dissatisfied parents pull their little darlings out of the scummy state school so they and their coffee morning friends can tutor their kids in their living room, WITH extra funding from the government, meanwhile £8,000 per child in funding is lost from the failing public school, which poverty-stricken children have literally no means of escaping? The main interference I endorse is helping to alleviate poverty. Then why don't you support a party like the Greens or the Liberals, for whom this is one of their very top priorities? As far as I’m aware the Tories don't even pretend this is top of their agenda.
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Post by Tellurium on Apr 26, 2010 10:44:59 GMT
Only this morning the Conservatives have announced another education policy – to allow parents to set up their own schools if they’re dissatisfied with their local ones, and for those schools to be funded by the council. You're kidding me. This just made my heart hurt. That is the most batshit insane non-solution to a desperate problem that I've heard in my entire life.
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yellowbelly1945
Empress
An Elephant Hawkmoth from my garden, released alive
Posts: 157
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Post by yellowbelly1945 on Apr 26, 2010 11:48:10 GMT
Well florence, to answer the question about why don't I vote for the Greens of the LibDems. In short it's because I agree with the Conservative ethos of delegating as much power as possible from Central Government to people, while looking after the poorest in our land.
The Greens have lurched to the left, and from my experience of a councillor, I know how contrary and ineffective Liberal Democrats can be. I don't want to be controlled even more by Europe, I'm against this country having the Euro, and the LibDem policy of an amnesty for approx. 600,000 illegal immigrants is barmy.
As for homophobia I've found from personal experience that the most homophobic are some older people and some people from the lower social economic groups. It takes time for people's attitudes to change.
Some, but not all, people who call themselves Christians, and Moslems are opposed to homosexuality on their interpreation of the holy books. I believe in the Christian ethos of loving my neighbour as myself, and I do not interpret writings by St. Paul, or in the Old Testament, as meaning that Jesus was homophobic or preached against homosexuals.
There are older MPs in all parties. Candidates / MPs are chosen by the members of political parties, (except those Conservatives chosen by open primaries). Left wing gay rights campaigners often mention that Cameron did not put a whip on Conservative Lords to vote for Lord Alli's amendment on Civil Partnerships being able to take place in churches. What they fail to mention is that all parties allowed a free vote on this amendment, and that as well as some Conservatives voting against it there were Liberal Democrats and Labour peers voting against it.
The alleviation of poverty. When Cameron took over he institued a series of Policy Groups within the Conservative Party. One was the Social Justice Policy Group which was chaired by the former leader Iain Duncan Smith (IDS), who himself had set up the independent think-tank, the Centre for Social Justice. In a speech with IDS gave to the "Labour" think-tank, the Smith Institue, (named after the former Labour leader John Smith), IDS outlined the research which had helped to inform new policy intiatives.
"Over 18 months we consulted in excess of 2,000 individuals and organisations, held around 3,000 hours of hearings and, through You Gov, accessed approximately 50,000 demographically selected people on the key issues. We spoke to drug addicts and people who grew up in broken homes, taking evidence and costing our findings."
This research found that there are 5 "pathways" to poverty: The five pathways are: Family breakdown. Educational failure. Economic dependency and worklessness. Addictions to drink and drugs. Serious personal debt. The Conservative mainfesto addresses all these pathways.
As for education, only 2 of the Conservative front bench went to Eton. The others went to a variety of schools, mainly in the state sector, including comprehensives, high schools, and grammar chools. Some went to fee paying schools.
Your earlier post refereed to Margaret Thatcher - privatisation , Miners' strike. The Miners' strike came about because Arthur Scargill refused to hold a ballot of his members, instead calling them out to strike over a policy to close uneconomic pits. The previous Labour Government had not wanted to alienate the miners, although they knew the pits were uneconomic, so they just kep paying for them from taxation and borrowed money. Thatcher had to cut out waste in order to get rid of the massive national debt that Labout had left.
I see nothing wrong in privatising companies, as long as worker's rights are maintained. Publicly owned companies tend to be less efficient than private ones.
We shall have to agree to disagree on politics.
Let us hope that from May 7th the make-up of Government is such that the triple A credit rating which Britain has on the internation markets is maintained. If, as in the case of Greece, our credit rating goes down, then the country will have to pay higher interest on the money it borrows, which will mean more taxation and more cuts for us all. Alistair Darling has already said that the cuts he intends bringing in will be tougher and deeper than those Thatcher brought in.
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Post by helwin tins on Apr 26, 2010 12:52:13 GMT
the term 'broken home' is so patronising.
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Post by Lemon Bloody Cola on Apr 26, 2010 13:11:18 GMT
Well florence. to answer the question about why don't I vote for the Greens of the LibDems. I short it's because Iaree with the Conservative ethos of delegating as much power as possible from Central Government to people, while looking after the poorest in our land. Surely you can get behind the Lib Dems plan to make the first £10000 of earnings free of income tax? Doesn't that cover both the bases you just mentioned? Or is it just about delegating power to more well off people? Perhaps delegating more power to the poorest in our land would work better than a paternalistic approach. I agree with Sibz. Some homes need "breaking" if two adult people aren't in love or their realtionship has become destructive they shouldn't stay together, just not good for the kids whatever the economic implications. The fact these matters have anything to do with the government just blows my mind. It's social engineering, the exact opposite approach to social libertarianism. You can't be a libertarian allowing the middle class and rich to make their own economic choices (however destructive) whilst dictating to the great unwashed how to run their personal lives. Libertarianism means giving people of all social backgrounds rights to make their own choices (and to face the consequances of said choices). Your conception of the Tory party seems to lean toward more New Labour-esque nanny stateism.
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yellowbelly1945
Empress
An Elephant Hawkmoth from my garden, released alive
Posts: 157
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Post by yellowbelly1945 on Apr 26, 2010 13:40:03 GMT
CM Punk Raising the tax threshold to £10,000 will not help those who don't earn or recieve £10,000, the poorest in our land, but will give money to people on £99,000 p.a..
I don't like categorising people, but I do believe we all have a responsibility to help alleviate poverty, both in the UK and overseas. Libertarian doesn't mean "Sod the lot of you", it means allowing people to get on with their own lives free of interference from the state and from others, except that people need to pay some taxes to provide essential services and to alleviate poverty, which includes raising educational achievement.
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Post by jadeface on Apr 26, 2010 13:55:12 GMT
Well my parents and probably my whole family vote tory, and always have done. I'd say we're pretty all around middle class (lower-middle class if that is a term) but I don't want to vote tory and have never even considered it, as I have totally different views on almost everything to my family, and they are way more traditional than I am. That's why it doesn't surprise me that I'm often shocked or annoyed by their views. But they aren't evil people, they work hard, we've never been rich, my mum is a cleaner, my dad fixes fridges. The mortgage was paid for because my dad found loads of roman torcs with a metal detector, before that we were in a lot of financial trouble.
So, I have absolutely no idea what my original point was. HA
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Post by Lemon Bloody Cola on Apr 26, 2010 14:04:35 GMT
Libertarian doesn't mean "Sod the lot of you" No, it certainly doesn't. It means having concern/supporting your fellow man voluntarily free from the sticks of state coercion and the carrots of "live the state endorsed way and get a tax break!" variety.
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Post by helwin tins on Apr 26, 2010 14:26:45 GMT
this conversation is getting pretty boring. yellowbelly doesn't seem interested in answering any of the tricky points we've brought up i notice.
interesting fact: my mother said to me recently "i love you, and you have every right to vote for whoever you want, but if you vote for david cameron i will disown you." which made me laugh, because the thought of me voting for him is simply preposterous. i run an organisation based around social change, i'm not fucking stupid, i understand exactly the implications of a tory government.
another interesting fact: i know a girl who thought "the tsunami" was a terrorist organisation.
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Post by admin on Apr 26, 2010 14:37:41 GMT
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yellowbelly1945
Empress
An Elephant Hawkmoth from my garden, released alive
Posts: 157
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Post by yellowbelly1945 on Apr 26, 2010 16:02:21 GMT
What are you talking about "vinyl in motion". What "tricky points" are outstanding? You give me them and I'll give you my views. My attitude is that people can vote for who they like. Like Jadeface my family were not wealthy. My dad worked as an electrician for the local Council (pre nationisation) and then the Electricity Board. My mum was a part-time barmaid. We lived on a Council estate.
'll post this and then review what people of written to see if I can find any unanswered "tricky points"? I can't find any unanswered "tricky points". Fortunately the "expenses scandal" got rid of a lot of MPs who should have retired years ago. As Florence says there may be a few left, but they're in the minority. I do know that being involved in Government , whether at National or Local level can become a way of life and many people don't want to give it up, and these of course unclude effective MPs / councillors.
I won my Council seat from Labour, and it's been Conservative ever since. It includes a large former Council estate, which the last Conservative Government spent £22million on renovating. The area still has problems of educational underachievement, although Ofsted has rated one of the local primaries as Outstanding.
I'm still involved in a charity there which supports young people, paying them to go on residential weeks, like outward bound courses, or paying for trips to Alton Towers, or going paintballing.
I'm fairly unconventional. If I was to dwell on the fact, what would really fuck me up would be the fact that I'm 65 in June. The majority of my friends are under 25. I do own my own semi outright. I'm only worth about £180,000 dead, and that includes the house, and the bulk of that is going to young people who didn't get the right start in life.
So give me the "tricky points" and I'll try to answer them, or tell you if I haven't an answer. No political party does right 100% of the time, not even Asquith's Liberal Giernment of 1910.
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Post by sarah on Apr 26, 2010 16:06:24 GMT
well now i'm DEFINITELY not voting for conservatives
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Post by admin on Apr 26, 2010 16:52:01 GMT
well now i'm DEFINITELY not voting for conservatives BATTLE THE HOMOPHOBES! Cheerio, Michael. xxx
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