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Post by lastgoodbye on Apr 26, 2010 17:32:14 GMT
What are you talking about "vinyl in motion". What "tricky points" are outstanding? You give me them and I'll give you my views. My attitude is that people can vote for who they like. Like Jadeface my family were not wealthy. My dad worked as an electrician for the local Council (pre nationisation) and then the Electricity Board. My mum was a part-time barmaid. We lived on a Council estate. So give me the "tricky points" and I'll try to answer them, or tell you if I haven't an answer. No political party does right 100% of the time, not even Asquith's Liberal Giernment of 1910. She wasn't checking you to see how much you don't conform to a stereotype, with all respect, no one cares what your background is. In terms of my post, there were several points you didn't really answer on directly. I'll focus on my accusation that the Conservatives are by far the most homophobic party out there, backed up by their voting record (in the link I posted). "It takes time for people's attitudes to change" is true. Should we sit around and wait calmly for the homophobic proportion of the Tories to die off, while they're running our country? I don't think so. Right, I'll be straight here. Obviously David Cameron, his core party members who he keeps around him, and dominant members of the party aren't homophobic. But every MP gets a vote in parliament, and while Cameron might be sucking up in interviews to Attitude magazine and such, he certainly hasn't got the guts to confront or even sack all of his MP's who are holding comfortable seats for the party while spreading homophobic vile to fifteen and sixteen year old school children. www.attitude.co.uk/viewblog.aspx?blogid=2261&viewuserid=1d17547e-17b6-4271-8b20-f3eb845a65d0How can you read this and be comfortable with voting for the Conservatives? That's not even obscure local MP's, that's Cameron himself. How can you claim to be libertarian and yet vote for someone who says that "the ideal adoption is finding a mum and a dad" and votes against gay adoption accordingly, inflicting his (misguided and homophobic) 'ideal' on a nation?
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Post by helwin tins on Apr 26, 2010 20:11:48 GMT
Obviously David Cameron, his core party members who he keeps around him, and dominant members of the party aren't homophobic. OR "David Cameron and his core party members aren't OPENLY homophobic". You pointed out a whole load of reasons in your own post why he is though! Also, remember it was the SHADOW CHANCELLOR that was involved in the whole bed and breakfast debacle a few weeks ago.
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Post by admin on Apr 26, 2010 20:14:19 GMT
Obviously David Cameron, his core party members who he keeps around him, and dominant members of the party aren't homophobic. OR "David Cameron and his core party members aren't OPENLY homophobic". You pointed out a whole load of reasons in your own post why he is though! Also, remember it was the SHADOW CHANCELLOR that was involved in the whole bed and breakfast debacle a few weeks ago. Have you seen his Gay Times interview? Either he doesn't believe in equality or he's as stupid as shit. Either way, he's a moron and I don't want him running our country. Slimy peice of shit. He makes me retch. Cheerio, Michael. xxx
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Post by helwin tins on Apr 26, 2010 20:18:49 GMT
OR "David Cameron and his core party members aren't OPENLY homophobic". You pointed out a whole load of reasons in your own post why he is though! Also, remember it was the SHADOW CHANCELLOR that was involved in the whole bed and breakfast debacle a few weeks ago. Have you seen his Gay Times interview? Either he doesn't believe in equality or he's as stupid as shit. Either way, he's a moron and I don't want him running our country. Slimy peice of shit. He makes me retch. Cheerio, Michael. xxx EXACTLY. on both points. he nearly knocked my friend over on his stupid bike once. homophobic (or at least not gay-friendly) joke from cameron: www.gaytimes.co.uk/Interact/Blogs-sectionid-597-articleid-3579.html
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Post by helwin tins on Apr 26, 2010 20:21:21 GMT
ads on the gay times website: i'm yet to see a conservative one, post it if anyone sees it.
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Post by Lemon Bloody Cola on Apr 26, 2010 20:40:46 GMT
Also, remember it was the SHADOW CHANCELLOR that was involved in the whole bed and breakfast debacle a few weeks ago. No here one actually wants to hear my views on the B+B controv do they? Look at me being a libertarian blah blah.. insert your own "civil liberties! booo to the government" etc ranting from me and preceding shit storm ..but the point is, believing government shouldn't be allowed to dictate who people have in their homes doesn't make you a homophobe. I'd feel the same if it was someone with aspergers, dark skin or ginger hair turned away from that B+B. Not that I'd want to associate myself with George "lightweight" Obsborne or the bigots who ran that particular B+B. But I'll defend to the death their right to be bigots up to the point where violence or incitement to violence comes into play. It would be better if an independent LBGT body awarded a mark of gay friendliness to businesses and the those of us like myself who are disgusted by homophobia could boycott those without, rather than hoping to be "protected" by the state, handing it more power in the process. I'm sure everyone will disagree with me, but the point is.. thinking like this might be your wrong in your book but it isn't automatically motivated by homophobia.
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Post by helwin tins on Apr 26, 2010 20:56:21 GMT
I kind of agree to an extent, but he's in a position of potential political power (alliteration, POW!) and at a time when he wants gay voters to trust him, this just proved that he's not as gay friendly as they'd like to make out. Ultimately I think the Government should let people get on with their lives, but this is a case of flat out ignorance and bigotry, which the government, or those hoping to form a government should completely and utterly always be opposed to. Besides, these people weren't just wankers, they broke the law. We should be proud to live in a country where discrimination on the grounds of sexual preference is illegal, and that should be upheld all the way to the top of the political totem pole.
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yellowbelly1945
Empress
An Elephant Hawkmoth from my garden, released alive
Posts: 157
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Post by yellowbelly1945 on Apr 26, 2010 20:58:27 GMT
A word about the B+B incident. Grayling is a twat. He voted for the legislation. He's apologised, and withdrawn his remarks, but I think his frontbench days are numbered.
It's easy to do one-sided research. Andy Burnham, Keith Vaz, Peter Kilfoyle, and Frank Field, and many other Labour MPs voted against homosexuality equality. Sir Alan Beith and Tim Farron, the LibDem's Shadow Secreatry of State for the Environment, Food, and Rural Affairs also voted against; and Tim Farron is strongly homophobic yet Clegg has appointed him a Shadow Secretary of State.
Many people are floating voters. I'm not. I've been a Conservative since I was 14. Labour's action on homosexual equality was right, but Labour's overall ethos of the State knowing best is something I can't agree with. I've seen them centralise policy decisions, and emasculate local government. They've vastly increased bureaucracy, and once again got the country into a massive debt problem, just as they did the last time they were in power.
I am against the formation of a European Army, the Euro, and an amnesty for illegal immigrants, (all LibDem policies). I was against the Iraq invasion, and belive we should aim to reduce conflict, and strengthen the United Nations rather than Nato.
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Post by helwin tins on Apr 26, 2010 21:14:58 GMT
I don't happen to be Pro-Labour, or Pro-any party in fact...I know Tim Farron is especially a twat, he's sponsored by CARE (http://www.thetruthaboutcare.moonfruit.com/). Anyway, it's not one-sided research, all parties have rogue elements, as is to be expected in any group of people large enough to be a notable presence in British politics, it's just that the Conservatives are notorious for it. Lets remember people, it's not just homophobia, it's sexism (why would i vote for a party, for whom maintenance of the patriarchy is a cornerstone? might as well just shoot myself in the foot). www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2010/01/02/the-nasty-party-in-their-own-words-115875-21936181/Anyway, I was just thinking how cool the internet is... this sort of discussion with the people involved in this manner would pretty much never happen "IRL"
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yellowbelly1945
Empress
An Elephant Hawkmoth from my garden, released alive
Posts: 157
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Post by yellowbelly1945 on Apr 26, 2010 21:24:52 GMT
That Mirror article is pathetic. You just cannot make a sweeping statement about one political party based on a very very small percentage of councillors, all of whome will have had the Party whip withdrawn for making such remarks.
I haven't done research on councillors of other parties or independents; frankly life is too short. My experience of the Conservative Party, and I've been involved in it at national regional and local levels over the years is that the party is no more homophobic than any other, and certainly not sexist. The Conservatibe Party had the first female Prine Minister, and probably had the first gay one (Edward Heath?).
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Post by helwin tins on Apr 26, 2010 21:41:46 GMT
Thatcher was completely anti-Feminist. The only woman that ever made it to her cabinet was Baroness Young, and that was short lived. She openly said "I owe nothing to Women's Lib". She was unsympathetic to women's problems- against single mothers and against working mothers.
Thatcher set Feminism back. Thanks to her social conservatism how many people accepted false truths about women? Not to mention gays- Section 28 was brought in under her.
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Post by Rhiflect on Apr 26, 2010 21:45:26 GMT
the term 'broken home' is so patronising. Agreed, although it does sometimes emcompass a lot of things that would otherwise take a while to say. Also, i HATE 'broken Britain'.
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Post by Lemon Bloody Cola on Apr 26, 2010 21:51:29 GMT
I don't think there's any concrete proof Edward Heath was gay! He just happened to be a bachelor, which is rare in public life. You haven't addressed the "my gay vote" statistics Florence posted.. it somewhat debunks the "isolated incidents, all parties have rogues" line of defense currently being aired. What's your rebuttal to the Conservatives being over 60% less favourable (based on parliamentary votes) on gay issues than Labour/Lib Dems? liberalconspiracy.org/westminster/2010/04/10/wheres-your-gay-vote-going/Also FUN THATCHER FACTOID; Section 28 was indefensible but when homosexuality was decriminalised in the sixties, every single Tory MP voted against it with the exception of one... Ms Thatcher! I don't say that as a defense, I just think it's a neat little piece of surprising trivia.
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yellowbelly1945
Empress
An Elephant Hawkmoth from my garden, released alive
Posts: 157
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Post by yellowbelly1945 on Apr 26, 2010 21:58:11 GMT
One could ask why it took Parliament so long to decriminalise homosexuality, considering Russia did so in the 1830s, as did many other countries long before Britain did. Although he later joined the Labour Party, and then the SDP, and then back to Labour the first Bill in Parliament to decriminalise homosexuality came from a Conservative MP.
As for the outgoing MPs they are the outgoing MPs. The new intake will be different. There are 3 openly gay MPs in the Conservative Shadow cabinet, and about 20 extra openly gay Conservative candidates, including one in Leeds.
The point I was making was that the Conservatives have had both a female PM and very likely a gay one, while Labour have had neither. Thatcher wasn't a feminist, but she was a woman.
As for Section 28, it was wrong and Cameron has apologised for it. Incidentally Harriet Harman's uncle, Lord Longfors, the Labour peer, vehemently supported section 28. He was wrong too.
As I've said previously times change and people's views and policies change with time.
I thnk that "broken Britain" sums up quite a bit of what wrong with Britain, such as dysfunctional families (not just Sharon Matthews), an appalling criminal justice system, low levels of literacy - 40% of primary school leavers cannot read and write properly, an emphais in secondary education on raising the percentage of pupils getting 5 A-Cs and caring nothing for those who are not even submitted for exams. And then of course there's the national debt which has gone up by £930,000+ in the 3 minutes it's taken me to type this post
I'm signing off now as I have a job to do which I must do before I go to bed, which I suspect will not be before 5am.
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Post by irrelevant on Apr 27, 2010 7:20:41 GMT
I find the whole "I found out he was a Tory and lost respect for him" type posts a bit.. uncomfortable? yeah, if you find someone's so-called 'perspective' or 'logical and ethical foundation' idiotic, but refuse to bat an eye, that's love, man. and when you call them out on their idiocy, and they take your insult, hold it and accept it in their heart of hearts, that's real. that's god's love.
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Post by irrelevant on Apr 27, 2010 7:25:28 GMT
does any of cameron's proposed core value policies call for a restrengthening of the english institution of afternoon tea?
talk about a wedge issue the shape of a cake to divide old school anti-tories with today's liberal starbucks swillers.
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Post by jadeface on Apr 27, 2010 9:31:17 GMT
Broken Britain is bullshit, sorry. Things are way more widely publicised before, there have always been 'dysfunctional families' whatever that means, as every family works differently, ALL families can be pretty fucked up, mine was at times, and I had never been living on poverty as stuff like that seems to suggest. Just because some people waltz onto Jeremy Kyle doesn't mean that Britain is over. I don't obviously have the answer, there are a lot of people in bad situations, and there are so many possible reasons for that. But I don't think 'Britain' is that bad, considering other countries are totally oppressed by their governments, and widespread poverty affects almost everyone. Also, white pride is disgusting. I just got a BNP poster through the door in Milton Keynes. I didn't have any in London, well, that's obvious, it's pretty multicultural, especially where I live. Why is Nick Griffin (I never realised how wonky his eyes were) posing with Winston Churchill (that is him, right?) behind him? Have I missed something completely? douche.
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Post by Elderberry Fucking Fanta on Apr 27, 2010 10:17:30 GMT
We got that flyer too. The local BNP man in South Eastern Kent's last name is Whiting. Heh.
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Post by lastgoodbye on Apr 27, 2010 10:41:01 GMT
^ Jade, I got one of these through the door on the island as well (actually, it's sat on the desk right next to me), along with a UKIP one ("Say NO to mass immigration, say YES to referendums on all major issues").
SINCE WHEN WERE WHITE PEOPLE EVER EVER TREATED AS SECOND CLASS CITIZENS? That level of stupidity makes my mind want to implode.
But yeah, my constituency is so great that I got an extra leaflet through my door, for the newly formed Middle England Party. I know where my vote is going..
"Please help rebuild Broken Britain. ....decide what's best for the future of this once great Nation. ..it appears the hard working, honest, morally balanced silent majority of 'Middle England' can do nothing to change the direction we are travelling in - toward civil unrest and anarchy!" Of course!
Wait, Josh will love this one: "We have lost our ability to influence the nation's core values, moral compass, self discipline and boundaries to live by, and it will take real courage to put these issues back into society."
I agree, I think it's time for the terribly hard done by middle englanders to stand up and "say, 'I am worth something, I am worth listening too.'"
Their main policies are to stop all immigration, stop all financial support for single mothers under 18, bring back the death penalty, "stop all sex education for those under 12" and withdraw from all involvement in the "European Community."
Wow, you've got some pretty great ideas there!
And on the back of the leaflet it states this dude's qualifications and experience (it's a one man party):
"Worked my way up from Tractor driver, Cowman, Foreman, to Farm Manager. Sailed in the BT Global Challenge yacht race. Regular Blood Donor. Stand up comedy as 'Sin Jun Farquant' the country bumpkin!"
LET'S VOTE FOR HIM, GUYS. Only on the Isle of Wight...
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Post by lastgoodbye on Apr 27, 2010 10:44:34 GMT
It's easy to do one-sided research. It's not one-sided research though! The statistics show that the majority of Conservative MP's voted against gay rights laws every time, whereas every time it was a small minority of MP's in the other parties. That's not one-sided, that's the whole picture. And the fact that Cameron and Osborne, the two biggest players in the party show homophobic 'tendencies' if you want to put it lightly (you're right Sibz, I was being optimistic before) is something you can't just dismiss. Although obviously you’re going to continue to do so, so I don’t know why I’m bothering. The fact is, if the Conservatives had had a majority Government over the last thirteen years instead of Labour, then gay couples wouldn't be allowed to adopt, they wouldn't have any legal protection against homophobic discrimination, their age of sexual consent would still be two years higher than straight people. The very reasons why you have equal rights are all things the Conservatives actively objected to. I don't understand how you're comfortable supporting them. Also, the Conservatives weren't (and still aren't) against the war in Iraq. Incidentally Harriet Harman's uncle, Lord Longfors, the Labour peer, vehemently supported section 28. He was wrong too. This is RIDICULOUS, please stop citing it. How has what your uncle believes got anything to do with what you do, or how you act? Even if it was her father, it wouldn't make a damn bit of difference, but her uncle? It really highlights your lack of valid arguments.
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