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Post by lastgoodbye on Jan 19, 2011 16:47:02 GMT
I know there's been some discussion about tarot and also suppliments (some of which are herbal/homeopathic) on the board, so I thought I'd start a topic about new age stuff in general. Plus I have my sociology A-level in Religion and Beliefs this friday, so I'm keeping my wolfboarding on topic Does anyone believe in guardian angels? Ghosts? Palm reading? Séances/making contact with the dead? Meditation? Astrology? or anything else like that? Or do you agree with Richard Dawkins, that new age beleifs are a danger to society? Because the industry is worth millions of pounds, it distracts us from real evidence-based science, and diverts sick people from real cures, and involves exploitation of gullable/grieving people, and so forth. As much as I don't really like the man, his documentary on this is pretty good. For instance, there are five homeopathic NHS hospitals, even though there is no evidence that homeopathy works. Dangerous stuff, or harmless fun? Is it all bollocks? Or are some things just beyond human comprehension? And do you think we're becoming less rational as a society? Are we less trusting of science now?
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Post by jay on Jan 19, 2011 16:55:10 GMT
not sure if i believe in guardian angels but my mum thinks i have one because she saw him when i was a child... i definitely believe in "ghosts" meditation has been a huge help for me in regards to recovering from my depression and anxiety so i can't write that off. i don't think new age beliefs are a danger to society at all, this stuff has always been around and it kind of ebbs and flows with regards to religion and science... like how most people were pagan and into rituals and festivals and then christianity evolved and then science gained more support, etc. i don't think homeopathy should be written off as something that "diverts sick people from real cures" because if something helps your condition, you're going to consider that a cure, or at least on the way to one, whether it's scientifically medicinal or not. i'm curious as to why there's no evidence that homeopathy works, because most medicine comes from plants and so on, which is the basis of homeopathy... we had a lecture from a homeopathist when i was training to be a nurse and i'd say 80% of us blew her off as some kind of crazy quack, myself included, because we were all 'medically minded' if that makes sense.. but now that i've grown up a bit and i'm not involved with nursing, i can definitely see the benefits that she was talking about. my friend has neuropathy/neuropathic pain that no medicine can cure or really treat effectively and he's looking into acupuncture, which is said to help. i am rambling now. eta: i do believe in tarot, strangely enough.. and am somewhat perplexed that it seems to be religious in origin because while i consider myself to be spiritual i don't think i'm religious at all. and i have attended a seance which was very interesting, even if it did imply i may have a miscarriage in the future.
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Post by lastgoodbye on Jan 19, 2011 17:04:51 GMT
i don't think new age beliefs are a danger to society at all, this stuff has always been around and it kind of ebbs and flows with regards to religion and science... like how most people were pagan and into rituals and festivals and then christianity evolved and then science gained more support, etc. i don't think homeopathy should be written off as something that "diverts sick people from real cures" because if something helps your condition, you're going to consider that a cure, or at least on the way to one, whether it's scientifically medicinal or not. I agree with everything you've said here. (and everything else you said was personal experience so I couldn't possibly agree or disagree). But yeah. I agree. I hope this isn't the end of the thread, haha. Maybe someone will come in and say something wildly controversial. I suppose with homeopathy, it obviously does help people, there's no debating that. But with some of the medicines, where it's 1 part "active ingredient" to 1000 parts water or whatever, it's cleary just a placebo affect. But if that helps, it's still good. It's just a debate as to whether it's worth spending NHS money on homeopathic doctors and hospitals if all it does is offer support and create a really good placebo affect. Maybe that is worth the money, I don't know.
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Post by jay on Jan 19, 2011 17:11:20 GMT
^ it is debatable whether something so minuscule can really help a condition/illness, i agree. and placebos are a new discussion in and of themselves! i was thinking about this with regards to jade and her mentioning of rhiodiola in the supplements thread - when i looked it up, it said it was used effectively for depression (subsequently this is why i can't take it, if it affects serotonin levels i may essentially "overdose") but i wonder how they studied it... cos i remember when i was 15 my doctor suggested i take st. john's wort and perhaps because i wasn't in the mindset of recovering from depression, i just wanted it to be treated and go away, it never worked for me?
health belief systems are an interesting thing tied into the above point. it's amazing how people's opinions of health/bad health/good health differ. some people think when they have bad health it's someone else's job to cure it, and other people think it's their own responsibility to get better. one person's idea of bad health can be extremely different to another person's (like someone with a chronic illness might consider themselves healthy and someone with no chronic illness might think a cold is DEADLY etc). all of that definitely affects the efficacy of medical hospitals themselves, because if the majority of people have a reliant-on-doctors health belief, they will believe they can be treated/cured by medicine. if that makes sense.
i don't know if homeopathy is worth a HUGE amount of the NHS' budget, but getting into the budget itself is again another can of worms... don't get me started, hah. having worked in that environment for only two years has frustrated me enough.
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Post by Lemon Bloody Cola on Jan 19, 2011 20:19:54 GMT
And do you think we're becoming less rational as a society? Are we less trusting of science now? I've done many a rant on this subject on tumblr and otherwise but I believe it's the other way around, at least in the youthful educated/left-of-centre circles I spend most time around. Religion and spirituality are in decline and atheism is on the rise in America and Europe; or so statistics show. Personally I think society needs religion/spirituality; a sense that there is something more than our day to day physical existence of working, shagging and dying. The decline of religion in the west to me has not ushered in a enlightened rational humanist age, but a society sick with materialism, ego and indiscriminate chasing after status, ego fulfillment and sensual pleasures. Money and sex are the new Gods. Most people don't really understand science on a deep level, so many people don't put any thought into the "deeper", "big" question and just lazily leave it to the scientists. For all the negatives of religious societies, at least within them people of all levels of education and class are encouraged to think beyond their next pay check or shag. Things beyond themselves in other words. Religious fundamentalists may present ideas that are violently anti-scientific, and impede scientific progress. But I can't think of a single religious person who would ever propose out and out abolishing science. Though this is exactly what the extremists like Dawkins want to do with religion and spiritual belief. I think this along, with the fact that science and rationality are simply tools that can be used for either good or evil, and how Dawkinsites and core anti-theist atheists often discuss them with a weirdly "religious" reverence (I mean I couldn't function without my arms so I'm pretty strong in my belief that my arms are just the coolest; but I'm not going to start WORSHIPPING them cos they're only as good as what I use them for. I feel the same why about science and rationality) and the fact that this variety of atheist science advocates are often belittling, offensive and prone to slurring religious people is WHY elements of society have come to distrust scientific rationalism. Not to mention how some of the most passionate advocates for science like Dawkins are open apologists for things like eugenics and human genetic engineering. A bit like how many people's anti-religion feeling comes from the actions of religious extremists. Deadly cycle. The solution is, we need to try and understand and respect each others beliefs as a species. That's usually the solution, but do humans ever listen? Nah I suppose it's more fun forming into little ideological tribes and throwing childish insults at each other like "faithhead" and "infidel". I'm going to try and do that now and remain respectful when I say I am not a fan of the "new age" variety of spirituality, nor do I believe in any of the things Florence mentioned (other than one I'll get to in second) My Mum is into the whole hippy lets burn a joss-stick and buy some crystals "lifestyle" spirituality and I can say that isn't the path for me. For me religion - while often characterized as a crutch - is a big responsibility (being answerable to an omnipotent God isn't all fun and games!) to enter into and should be based on heavy searching, thought and study (with a pinch of healthy skepticism) as well as a more intuitive and emotive spiritual experience. I'm not too keen on "dabbling" myself, but who I'm I to judge what works for someone else or to exalt my personal path above that of anyone else's? I would argue that meditation doesn't belong in that list at all. I'm not an expert in it, but mediation isn't in the least bit supernatural or even religious. It seems a pretty down to earth exercise based around mental and bodily control and awareness that can be practiced and beneficial to people of all belief systems (or non) it's used in a lot of secular therapies and what not.
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Post by jay on Jan 19, 2011 20:56:11 GMT
^ agree. especially with the part where you said today it's more about worshipping money and sex, and your last point about meditation. well said, chap.
eta: i hate pressing enter before i'm properly done. obviously i differ from your views about certain new age things, i'm probably more like your mum with the crystals etc ;D
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Post by Lemon Bloody Cola on Jan 19, 2011 21:01:28 GMT
Or are some things just beyond human comprehension? This isn't a dig at Flo but I find it scary that this is even a question. Oh the arrogence of humanity to even concieve that we can ever comprehend everything! If anyone's interested I think this sort of thinking and utopianism in general are the real symbolic meaning of the Tower of Babel story in Genesis.
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Post by lastgoodbye on Jan 19, 2011 22:16:03 GMT
I know some things obviously ARE beyond human comprehension, but I more specifically meant "Are the things in the list not bollocks, just beyond our comprehension?" But yeah, I know what you mean
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Post by lastgoodbye on Jan 20, 2011 14:14:37 GMT
I would argue that meditation doesn't belong in that list at all. I'm not an expert in it, but mediation isn't in the least bit supernatural or even religious. It seems a pretty down to earth exercise based around mental and bodily control and awareness that can be practiced and beneficial to people of all belief systems (or non) it's used in a lot of secular therapies and what not. Meditation isn't the least bit religious? Really? Meditation is a feature of Buddhism, Taoism, Hinduism, Islam and basically every major religion. There's even a new religious movement (Transcendental Meditation) based around it. The trend for Westerners/ hippyish 'New Age' folks to practice meditation was borrowed entirely from Eastern religion and philosophy. Take Yoga, a form of meditation which is actually a part of Hinduism, Buddhism and Jainism, but has been turned into some exercise class that people in L.A. do. That doesn't change the fact it's a religious concept. The whole point of the New Age is that it's a mix of spirituality, pseudo-science and other-worldly practices which have been nicked from traditional religions or belief systems and mass marketed. So yes. Meditation is an entirely religion-based concept, but it was taken from mainstream religious roots and turned into a 'spiritual' exercise. It definitely counts as a New Age belief. Just because it is beneficial doesn't mean it can't be a religious practise - it is. And even if it is used in some secular therapies (in the west), that doesn't change the fact that the vast majority of people who practice meditation on this earth do it as part of their religion (or for New Age-y 'spiritual' reasons).
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Post by lastgoodbye on Jan 20, 2011 14:29:53 GMT
I've done many a rant on this subject on tumblr and otherwise but I believe it's the other way around, at least in the youthful educated/left-of-centre circles I spend most time around. Religion and spirituality are in decline and atheism is on the rise in America and Europe; or so statistics show. We are becoming less religious in the UK, most of Europe, Canada, Australia and New Zealand. However non-Christian religious beliefs are still strong in the UK; it's mainly Christianity which is declining significantly fast. The United States I'd say is up for debate, because while the majority of USians are still becoming more secular, there's a very strong streak of Christian fundamentalism. Religious belief is still very strong or on the up in Latin America, India, the Middle East and most of Asia and Africa. Yeah, basically, I don't think you can make generalizations about the world becoming more atheistic, because it isn't. Like Jay mentioned, the balance of religion sort of changes and evolves, but there's no evidence of total decline. I know you just said "America and Europe," which is fair enough, but I just thought I'd clarify that one. There are some places, like India, who have a rapidly growing economy, and a fast-growing scientifically-educated middle class, but religious belief is getting stronger and stronger, and it's most prevalent in the growing middle classes, too. Around 85% of people in India are Hindu. I find that interesting, because it shows that increased belief in science and high employment in scientific fields doesn't necessarily affect religious conviction. Depends which religion.
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Post by jay on Jan 20, 2011 21:06:04 GMT
i learned to meditate through studying buddhism. i still haven't finished my book on it but that's because it's so interesting and appealing to me that when i read something i really like, i pore over it for ages and then don't move on... hah.
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Post by Lemon Bloody Cola on Jan 20, 2011 21:37:37 GMT
I would argue that meditation doesn't belong in that list at all. I'm not an expert in it, but mediation isn't in the least bit supernatural or even religious. It seems a pretty down to earth exercise based around mental and bodily control and awareness that can be practiced and beneficial to people of all belief systems (or non) it's used in a lot of secular therapies and what not. Meditation isn't the least bit religious? Really? Meditation is a feature of Buddhism, Taoism, Hinduism, Islam and basically every major religion. There's even a new religious movement (Transcendental Meditation) based around it. The trend for Westerners/ hippyish 'New Age' folks to practice meditation was borrowed entirely from Eastern religion and philosophy. Take Yoga, a form of meditation which is actually a part of Hinduism, Buddhism and Jainism, but has been turned into some exercise class that people in L.A. do. That doesn't change the fact it's a religious concept. The whole point of the New Age is that it's a mix of spirituality, pseudo-science and other-worldly practices which have been nicked from traditional religions or belief systems and mass marketed. So yes. Meditation is an entirely religion-based concept, but it was taken from mainstream religious roots and turned into a 'spiritual' exercise. It definitely counts as a New Age belief. Just because it is beneficial doesn't mean it can't be a religious practise - it is. And even if it is used in some secular therapies (in the west), that doesn't change the fact that the vast majority of people who practice meditation on this earth do it as part of their religion (or for New Age-y 'spiritual' reasons). I feel it's both inaccurate and inappropriate to put meditation in a category with "guardian angels? Ghosts? Palm reading? Séances/making contact with the dead? Astrology?" all overtly supernatural beliefs dependent on an element of faith. Where as meditation is something that can empirically be observed and tested, and that is in no way in contrast with our scientific understanding or a rational evidence based understanding of the world. A lot of things that originate in religion become a part of secular society detached from it; for example the ten commandments have served as the basis for the development of our modern legal system.
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Post by Lemon Bloody Cola on Jan 20, 2011 21:56:01 GMT
I've done many a rant on this subject on tumblr and otherwise but I believe it's the other way around, at least in the youthful educated/left-of-centre circles I spend most time around. Religion and spirituality are in decline and atheism is on the rise in America and Europe; or so statistics show. We are becoming less religious in the UK, most of Europe, Canada, Australia and New Zealand. However non-Christian religious beliefs are still strong in the UK; it's mainly Christianity which is declining significantly fast. The United States I'd say is up for debate, because while the majority of USians are still becoming more secular, there's a very strong streak of Christian fundamentalism. Religious belief is still very strong or on the up in Latin America, India, the Middle East and most of Asia and Africa. Yeah, basically, I don't think you can make generalizations about the world becoming more atheistic, because it isn't. Like Jay mentioned, the balance of religion sort of changes and evolves, but there's no evidence of total decline. I know you just said "America and Europe," which is fair enough, but I just thought I'd clarify that one. There are some places, like India, who have a rapidly growing economy, and a fast-growing scientifically-educated middle class, but religious belief is getting stronger and stronger, and it's most prevalent in the growing middle classes, too. Around 85% of people in India are Hindu. I find that interesting, because it shows that increased belief in science and high employment in scientific fields doesn't necessarily affect religious conviction. Depends which religion. I'd say the rise of really barmy Christian fundamentalism in the US is in part a reaction to people feeling threatened by the rise of atheism and secular values in the country (which statistics bare out, while the vast majority of Americas still believe in the Christian God, the atheist demographic is rising swiftly and consistently) but then America is a ridiculously divided country anyway. An amalgamation of 19th century and 21st century values that will likely never comfortably co-exist. Very interesting point you make there about the rest of the world. Economically it seems the American and European west is in decline whilst other nations such as India are on the rise and perhaps the superpowers (with all the cultural influence that entails) of tomorrow. So perhaps the decline in Western spirituality isn't as significant as it might seem. The Dharmic religions (ie Buddhism, Hinduism and so on) have a much easier relationship with science than the Abrahamic ones (Christianity, Judaism, Islam). You can be a practicing Buddhist and hold no supernatural belief whatsoever and the Hindu's seem a lot more open and comfortable with the idea of their myriad of gods and legends being allegorical in nature (with the "message" and spiritual lessons they teach being the important thing). I wish more Christians took this approach. The Hindu creation myth (from thousands of years BC) is also spookily akin to the theory of the big bang, though obviously this could well be coincidence and modern people reading that into it.
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Post by wakefromthysleep on Jan 20, 2011 21:57:23 GMT
jay, do you perform the LBRP before meditation to warm up?
I can't read everything in this thread now but I'll come back here on the weekend. Once I built myself a black scrying mirror. It didn't work for me but it was fun.
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Post by jay on Jan 21, 2011 15:39:30 GMT
jay, do you perform the LBRP before meditation to warm up? i've honestly never heard of that - just googled it and no, i don't. really my meditation is just sitting comfortably, focusing on my breathing and relaxing... and smiling to my body, making myself present, practicing right mindfulness and so on.
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Post by lastgoodbye on Jan 21, 2011 16:10:38 GMT
Meditation isn't the least bit religious? Really? Meditation is a feature of Buddhism, Taoism, Hinduism, Islam and basically every major religion. There's even a new religious movement (Transcendental Meditation) based around it. The trend for Westerners/ hippyish 'New Age' folks to practice meditation was borrowed entirely from Eastern religion and philosophy. Take Yoga, a form of meditation which is actually a part of Hinduism, Buddhism and Jainism, but has been turned into some exercise class that people in L.A. do. That doesn't change the fact it's a religious concept. The whole point of the New Age is that it's a mix of spirituality, pseudo-science and other-worldly practices which have been nicked from traditional religions or belief systems and mass marketed. So yes. Meditation is an entirely religion-based concept, but it was taken from mainstream religious roots and turned into a 'spiritual' exercise. It definitely counts as a New Age belief. Just because it is beneficial doesn't mean it can't be a religious practise - it is. And even if it is used in some secular therapies (in the west), that doesn't change the fact that the vast majority of people who practice meditation on this earth do it as part of their religion (or for New Age-y 'spiritual' reasons). I feel it's both inaccurate and inappropriate to put meditation in a category with "guardian angels? Ghosts? Palm reading? Séances/making contact with the dead? Astrology?" all overtly supernatural beliefs dependent on an element of faith. Where as meditation is something that can empirically be observed and tested, and that is in no way in contrast with our scientific understanding or a rational evidence based understanding of the world. A lot of things that originate in religion become a part of secular society detached from it; for example the ten commandments have served as the basis for the development of our modern legal system. Meditation may have "become a part of [some] secular societies," detatched from religion, but the vast, vast majority of the time when it is practiced, it's in a religious way. Like how Jay said she practised meditation when studying Buddhism. I've personally never come across an entirely secular style of meditation, but if such a thing does exist, it's existance doesn't overwrite the fact that meditation is a religious and spiritual thing... It hasn't lost it's original meaning, or what it means to most people who practice it; the meaning it takes in it's most common of forms. For most people who practice meditation, it's intrinsically entwined with personal spirituality and elements of their religion. Just because you don't think meditation contrasts with scientific belief, and you personally think that the rest I mentioned do... That means nothing. Homeopathy doesn't contrast with science/rationality for some people. Belief in an afterlife or ghosts doesn't contrast with science/rationality for some people. I could go on. So you personally like or believe in one aspect of the new age moment, and you disagree with the power or existance of the other examples I've given? That doesn't mean that the bit you approve of is excluded from the group.
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Post by lastgoodbye on Jan 21, 2011 16:21:12 GMT
Very interesting point you make there about the rest of the world. Economically it seems the American and European west is in decline whilst other nations such as India are on the rise and perhaps the superpowers (with all the cultural influence that entails) of tomorrow. So perhaps the decline in Western spirituality isn't as significant as it might seem. The Dharmic religions (ie Buddhism, Hinduism and so on) have a much easier relationship with science than the Abrahamic ones (Christianity, Judaism, Islam). You can be a practicing Buddhist and hold no supernatural belief whatsoever and the Hindu's seem a lot more open and comfortable with the idea of their myriad of gods and legends being allegorical in nature (with the "message" and spiritual lessons they teach being the important thing). I wish more Christians took this approach. The Hindu creation myth (from thousands of years BC) is also spookily akin to the theory of the big bang, though obviously this could well be coincidence and modern people reading that into it. This is all very interesting. The debate about secularization and religion in general is really complex and fun, but I've just taken my exam in it a few hours ago, so I technically never need to think or talk about it ever again I expect I still will, though.
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Post by Lemon Bloody Cola on Jan 21, 2011 16:39:45 GMT
Just because you don't think meditation contrasts with scientific belief, and you personally think that the rest I mentioned do... That means nothing. Homeopathy doesn't contrast with science/rationality for some people. Belief in an afterlife or ghosts doesn't contrast with science/rationality for some people. I could go on. In other news; there's no discernible difference between doing breathing exercises to combat anxiety attacks and believing in the Easter Bunny. Now a lot of people don't find their belief in ghosts etc or my belief in God and the resurrection of Christ for example to be contrary to science. However there is an admittedly strong case that with the evidence currently available to us that they are. Therefore they require a strong element of faith. Could you tell me what possible scientific case could be made against the existence or practice of meditation? Or what unproven supernatural phenomena it involves? Otherwise it just fits really awkwardly in the list you gave, like some sort of "which word doesn't belong?" comprehension test. I don't know why it bugged me, but it did. Sorry! This is dragging on now, I think we both just don't like admitting that we're wrong or could possibly be wrong or whatever.
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Post by jadeface on Jan 21, 2011 18:24:55 GMT
I've never had any belief in guardian angels. But sometimes, maybe within me, I feel a presence of the people I know who are no longer alive. I think when you have been close to people there is always some intuition and possibly knowledge of their perspective on life. I think that is only ever a positive thing, and it's a very human thing to do.
I occasionally have 'bad feelings' or thoughts about a person and sometimes (because maybe when nothing comes of it I dismiss the memory of the bad feeling) they end up being true. When my friend's mother's cancer came back I had really really really wanted to see her that day, and when I saw her that evening she told me. When my boyfriend's family was torn apart when he was in Sweden, I had an awful feeling the day that it all happened, even though he was hundreds of miles away. I'm not sure what that really is though, like I said I might just worry all the time and dismiss it when nothing bad happens.
I used to be intrigued by the idea of ghosts when I was younger but since then (when I really wanted them to exist) I don't experience anything. I think as a child I just looked for noises and things I saw and made myself believe it was ghostly. I've never had any kind of vivd experience, though.
I have never had my palm read, or anything in that sort of area, like tarot. I think for some people it's good for them to have maybe a little guidance, I think it helps people look more deeply into their lives and how to keep in control of it. But I say this as someone completely on the outside of it.
Apparently a really miniscule amount of time meditating is the equivalent to an hours rest, or something? This is regurgitated information which I haven't actually learnt first hand so it's probably so far removed from the facts, ha. I've never done it though, I can imagine it being a really positive experience. I watched Eat Pray Love (lol) and it made me want to meditate. I guess I sort of meditated when I was really depressed at the age of 12 or 13, but without following any real sort of instruction, and I would lie down instead of sit cross legged, etc. But I found, whatever that was, really good for my mind.
I don't read horoscopes P.S. what's this deal with new star signs? I've never had real effort to really understand it...
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Post by Rhiflect on Jan 22, 2011 17:28:44 GMT
Yeah I think the new horoscope thing is only for people born this year? I don't know. I'm sticking with being a Scorpio! I don't read horoscopes, but I think the character traits for it fit me really well.
When I genuinely read science or find out facts about 'New Age' stuff being rubbish, I realise that I don't intrinsically believe in it or think it works. However, there's a part of me (left over from when I'm younger, or something I tap into when I'm feeling disillusioned) that wants to or does believe in things like Guardian Angels - especially since my godfather who is a relatively big part of my life works partly in things like Reiki. But horoscopes and stuff I just see straight through, I reckon. I find seances and the like REALLY fascinating and I'd love to do one to see what happens - i'd be far too scared too though, despite my disbelief in the actual phenomena.
How far does New Age stuff equate to self-help, do you think? I happen to think a lot of self-help stuff is patronising and basic human nature. My mum's reliance on the books might have something to do with it, but the way they're written and the content of some of them just really gets on my nerves. My mum is a great believer in that sort of herbal remedies thing anyway. Just yesterday she called her anti-depressants (which she's just come off) "poison" which I told her I didn't agree with.
Interesting debate though!
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