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Post by lastgoodbye on Jan 22, 2011 22:10:39 GMT
Just because you don't think meditation contrasts with scientific belief, and you personally think that the rest I mentioned do... That means nothing. Homeopathy doesn't contrast with science/rationality for some people. Belief in an afterlife or ghosts doesn't contrast with science/rationality for some people. I could go on. In other news; there's no discernible difference between doing breathing exercises to combat anxiety attacks and believing in the Easter Bunny. Now a lot of people don't find their belief in ghosts etc or my belief in God and the resurrection of Christ for example to be contrary to science. However there is an admittedly strong case that with the evidence currently available to us that they are. Therefore they require a strong element of faith. Could you tell me what possible scientific case could be made against the existence or practice of meditation? Or what unproven supernatural phenomena it involves? Otherwise it just fits really awkwardly in the list you gave, like some sort of "which word doesn't belong?" comprehension test. I don't know why it bugged me, but it did. Sorry! This is dragging on now, I think we both just don't like admitting that we're wrong or could possibly be wrong or whatever. With all due respect, it is definitely you who is wrong. Meditation is a spiritual and religious practise, it has been for thousands of years, and is deeply significant to the religion of millions of people. Your definition of religion obviously involves "belief in something supernatural" and "faith in something unproveable" as criteria. But that is just one (very flawed) way of defining religion. To get technical, you're using a substantive definition, the whole "it must involve belief in a higher being, it must involve..." jazz, which sociologists used to use in the late 1800s. Substantive definitions are crap. They exclude some religions, most noteably Buddhism (which doesn't have a supernatural 'God' figure), and it's a very Western-centric line of thought. There are many other ways of defining what makes a religion, which I won't get into too deep now (by what functions they perform, how their followers define them, etc) which are far less narrow and "It must include this vaguely Christian element to qualify!"-ish. But I'd like to see you walk up to a Buddhist person and say "You know, meditation isn't remotely religious! I think religion has to involve something other-worldly, so you're just doing breathing exercises, really!!" I expect they would punch you in the face, if Buddhists weren't pacifists.
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Post by Lemon Bloody Cola on Jan 22, 2011 22:24:43 GMT
Nope, I'm still not wrong.
Cos you're defining your list by a different defination to the one I took umbrage at. I probably confused things by defining meditation is non-religious, it doesn't have to be but of course in a great deal, possibly the majority of cases it is. The problem I have with your little list of new age things is that EVERY one of them is SUPERNATURAL, therefore making meditation ill fit in the list in a way my narky, padantic brain found slightly disrespectful to the practice.
You have to admit I am not incorrect when I say that meditation is not a supernatural practice in anyway and listing it with a number of supernatural practices is jarring and inaccurate.
Also while believing in God/Gods is not essential to being a Buddhist (this especially seems to be the case with western Buddhists) many Buddhists do in fact have God/gods as part of their religion; the canon of sacred Buddhist texts is full of references to them.
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Post by lastgoodbye on Jan 22, 2011 23:09:47 GMT
No. It wasn't a list of supernatural practices, it was some examples of New Age practices. Did you even read the title of the thread? There is a difference between spiritual and supernatural. Nowhere in my first post did I say 'supernatural'.
"The problem I have with your little list of new age things is that EVERY one of them is SUPERNATURAL..."
GOD, I'M SO SORRY, my mistake. The confusion must have arisen when I didn't mention the word 'supernatural' at all. Just to clarify: Some elements of new age belief aren't supernatural, like meditation, or homeopathy - which I also mentioned in my first post, but you're conveniently ignoring. Actually, trying to predict the future is arguably not supernatural, either.
"my narky, padantic brain found slightly disrespectful to the practice." You think it's disrespectful to include something which is a major part of many people's religion and spirituality in a list of New Age beliefs? You don't think it's more disrespectful to blindly ignore the spiritual elements of the practice and say it's virtually secular? Why would implying that it's supernatural be disrespectful, anyway, exactly...?
"I probably confused things by defining meditation is non-religious, it doesn't have to be but of course in a great deal, possibly the majority of cases it is."
Where are you getting this idea that meditation is 'non-religious' in the "possibly the majority of cases"? Would you like me to list you all the religions which practice meditation? Baha’i, Buddhism, Christianity, Hinduism, Islam, Jainism, Judaism, Sikhism, Taoism, Transcendental Meditation? Or where it is used as a spiritual practise: in Yoga and the New Age movement?
So meditation doesn't fit your personal, narrow-minded definition of religion. You are still wrong to say it's not a spiritual practice, and not a religious practice, and that it shouldn't be included in a post about the New Age movement.
Why can you never accept that someone else might know more about a subject than you, and just stop and listen to what they have to say? You're a white dude from England, and you think that meditation is a mainly secular practice and not tied to religion, and you won't entertain the possibility that you're wrong and that your personal experience of meditation is different to most people in the world's experience of it?
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Post by Lemon Bloody Cola on Jan 22, 2011 23:21:35 GMT
You may not have defined your list as supernatural, but that doesn't mean the things in the list other than meditation don't fit that defination, they quite clearly do.
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Post by irrelevant on Jan 23, 2011 8:17:01 GMT
real life ain't comics, man! how do you expect to levitate without meditation? you can't just lift yourself up at the drop of a hat.
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Post by jay on Jan 23, 2011 13:01:55 GMT
But I'd like to see you walk up to a Buddhist person and say "You know, meditation isn't remotely religious! I think religion has to involve something other-worldly, so you're just doing breathing exercises, really!!" I expect they would punch you in the face, if Buddhists weren't pacifists. as an aside, i laughed so hard at this milk nearly came out my nose. carry on.
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Post by lastgoodbye on Jan 23, 2011 13:46:17 GMT
Not unsuprisingly, our argument carried on and finished outside of this thread.. So, we can carry on talking about other stuff!
What do people think about psychics? Do some people really have 'the gift' to read other people's minds, or "perceive information hidden from the normal senses through extrasensory perception" as wikipedia puts it? Also, does anyone watch The Mentalist? It's such a great show.
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Post by Rhiflect on Jan 23, 2011 23:33:01 GMT
Oop forgot the Wolfboard does arguments v. well. Did you come to a conclusion? And since I've been reading my Dezza Brown book, I've solidified my disbelief in the sort of people that do shows as psychics e.g. that Colin Fry bloke - it's apparently a lot about feeding the audience member the question and then pretending it was you who gave the answer when in fact it was them translating the idea e.g. someone in hospital into their current situation. But obviously there's people in everyday life who think they have otherworldy abilities. Since I don't know anyone who says stuff like that personally or enough to talk about it then I can't really elaborate. I just don't like letting go I haven't watch The Mentalist, but apparently I'd love it, since it sounds like a mixture between Ashes to Ashes and Derren Brown (who I'm seeing again in April YAY).
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Post by joshgroban on Jan 24, 2011 12:04:26 GMT
My sister had some back pain, which went away with crystal healing. Whether it worked or was a placebo effect I don't know but she's stoped whinging all the time so that's good.
I prefer Psych to The Mentalist just because it's more... Jolly.
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