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Post by jay on Aug 17, 2010 23:16:08 GMT
From my world view of "different but equal" chivalry doesn't contradict gender equality. Call it simplistic if you will but I just believe young boys should be taught to treat women respectfully; that's the crux of it for me. Young boys should be taught to treat everyone respectfully. That's how I was brought up and that's how I behave. i was just about to say this. (except, not with the 'young boys' part. i was going to say EVERYONE should be brought up to treat EVERYONE with respect.)
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Post by sarah on Aug 17, 2010 23:17:06 GMT
everyone should be taught to smash everyone
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Post by Lemon Bloody Cola on Aug 17, 2010 23:19:10 GMT
i've never judged my ethics against other people's, mainly because most people are severely lacking in any. I read far too much Nietzsche as a teenager to really hold much stock in the concept of ethics. I detest moralism and believe in avoiding passing judgement on others conduct as much as possible, focus on one's own. My personal code of behaviour can be defined by "minding your own business" or more nicely "live and let live" there's a thin line between rightous and self rightous. Not saying you've crossed it but in explination I just don't primarily consider subjective variables like morals... right and wrong when formulating my views, only what seems true and helpful. as a feminist, i have every right to label opinions i find sexist to be offensive. You make feminism sound like the intellectual equiverlant of a disabled parking pass.
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Post by helwin tins on Aug 17, 2010 23:25:00 GMT
why are you always so angry because there's a lot to be angry about. A man opened a door for her once. you know what, i hear sexist jokes like this every fucking day. you're not the first, you won't be the last, and none of them are funny.
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Post by Rhiflect on Aug 17, 2010 23:27:12 GMT
This isn't me getting someone else to do the 'dirty work', but my cousin is fantastically intelligent and passionate about such matters and would like to offer her opinions/view on this discussion. Take it away, Briony:
I appreciate feminism as a concept. I think any attempt to belittle women and to have men socially accepted as superior beings is wrong. Yet I think in todays world, things have, to be honest, got a bit ridiculous. To protest people helping you when they are in a position to do so is self defeating. To say no to a stronger person asking to carry your bags is hurting no one but yourself, and unless there is a clear insult built into the offer of aid - 'I'll carry those bags for you because you are physically inferior and therefore incapable of performing even the simplest manual task for youself,' why not simply accept what I would deem to be a perfectly natural, correct offer.
People seem to think that anything chivalric is misogynistic, simply because it involves treating women differently to men. I have an announcement that may shock and horrify you. Men and women are fundamentally different, from their genetic make up to the ways in which they are influenced by the media and society. This is documented. This is fact. I think the problem we are increasingly having as a society is that as we accept people who are different, we are unable to treat them differently for fear of being accused of viewing them as people who are not our equals. Yet just because I treat someone differently to someone else, this doesn't mean I do not respect either person, and I think that this is a distinction people are increasingly unable to make. It is ridiculous to say we should treat everyone the same, it might be a nice idea for a few minutes, but in practice it is unworkable and pointless.
I think that on the whole chivalric behavior shows respect towards women, and I think that a large proportion of women enjoy it. People will obviously interpret things in different ways, and we naturally have a right to do so, yet I struggle to understand the thought processes that lead up to the gesture of help becoming a terrible thing to do.
I don't want to bore you for going on for ages, although I probably have already, but while I have enjoyed reading what you have all written, and think some of you have very interesting views, I still plan on walking through any doors held open for me by a man, and not doing it for myself just to make a point. I know I can open a door. They know I can open a door. Personally, I don't feel the need to ram that unbelievably obvious point down everyones throat just because of some stupid idea of being somehow insulted.
..and you're back in the room. Yeah, just furthering the discussion.
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Post by Lemon Bloody Cola on Aug 17, 2010 23:27:50 GMT
Young boys should be taught to treat everyone respectfully. That's how I was brought up and that's how I behave. I agree but the social privilege males have gives them (I feel) subtly distinct responsibilties towards the opposite sex than toward their own. Women are a descriminated against group in our society and I believe it's positive if men are taught not to add to that descrimination in their actions. That's what I mean by chivalry. Leave women the hell alone if they want to left the hell alone and so forth, not forcing unwanted gestures of "kindness" on them.
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Post by jay on Aug 17, 2010 23:30:13 GMT
^ see i kind of gathered that's what you meant which is why i said i see your points as well. i don't think you meant any harm or sexism in your posts. you mean well! i don't see anything wrong with meaning well and i wouldn't find that patronising/insulting personally.
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Post by husbandwifeheroin on Aug 17, 2010 23:32:05 GMT
I like Briony.
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Post by helwin tins on Aug 17, 2010 23:34:05 GMT
You make feminism sound like the intellectual equiverlant of a disabled parking pass. you use your "disabilities" exactly as such constantly.
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Post by sarah on Aug 17, 2010 23:38:20 GMT
:/
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Post by Lawrence on Aug 17, 2010 23:39:22 GMT
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snorlaxio
Libertine
you jelly??????
Posts: 97
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Post by snorlaxio on Aug 17, 2010 23:39:23 GMT
You make feminism sound like the intellectual equiverlant of a disabled parking pass. you use your "disabilities" exactly as such constantly. I like the way you put 'disabilities' in quotes. Stay classy.
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Post by sarah on Aug 17, 2010 23:41:01 GMT
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Post by Lemon Bloody Cola on Aug 17, 2010 23:42:15 GMT
You make feminism sound like the intellectual equiverlant of a disabled parking pass. you use your "disabilities" exactly as such constantly. Does anyone else feel I do this? (serious questions) I talk about my aspergers and dyspraixa cos they're a big part of my day to day life just like your feminist views and experiences of gender discrimination. It both cases its about making people aware and conveying experience.
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Post by helwin tins on Aug 17, 2010 23:43:07 GMT
you use your "disabilities" exactly as such constantly. I like the way you put 'disabilities' in quotes. Stay classy. not that it's anything to do with you, but josh is into neurodiversity apparently, but insists on continuing to label himself as disabled when it benefits him.
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Post by Lemon Bloody Cola on Aug 17, 2010 23:44:49 GMT
you use your "disabilities" exactly as such constantly. I like the way you put 'disabilities' in quotes. Stay classy. In Sibz's defence here I subscribe to the view that aspergers isn't a disability but a difference (neurodiversity) so Sibz's brackets likely reflect that, not a dig.
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snorlaxio
Libertine
you jelly??????
Posts: 97
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Post by snorlaxio on Aug 17, 2010 23:45:55 GMT
I like the way you put 'disabilities' in quotes. Stay classy. not that it's anything to do with you, but Adam Rickitt is into neurodiversity apparently, but insists on continuing to label himself as disabled when it benefits him. You know, I don't think what you claim to be gender discrimination really is. I think it's asshole discrimination. You're an asshole. I'm out.
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Post by Rhiflect on Aug 17, 2010 23:46:36 GMT
Josh: You talk about your Aspergers a lot more now, but I guess you only do because you have it confirmed as Aspergers. Therefore, it is relevant to discussions involving disabilities, you, and situations where your disability has affected you and neurodiversity. However, it ISN'T always relevant, and I guess you should bear that in mind to keep from appearing to have it as a trump card.
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Post by sarah on Aug 17, 2010 23:52:04 GMT
i agree with rhianne, pretty sure i have it myself and yeah it is a massive part of life, i just don't feel the need to talk about it, but i guess that comes with the "difference", not realising when to stop talking about what you find interesting (i do it all the time too, not a dig)
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Post by Lemon Bloody Cola on Aug 17, 2010 23:54:07 GMT
I like the way you put 'disabilities' in quotes. Stay classy. not that it's anything to do with you, but Adam Rickitt is into neurodiversity apparently, but insists on continuing to label himself as disabled when it benefits him. I mention it because it becomes disabling in a neurotypical dominated enviroment when people aren't aware or accepting of different thought processes or ways of interaction. Pointing out differences is an attempt to make people understand what I'm thinking in some discussions, which would lead to more fruitful communciation on both sides if grasped. I'm not asking to be excused or treated specially just hoping to avoid misunderstanding. Also I might link my aspergers with disablity as there is a feeling in the neurdiveristy leaning autistic community that solidarity with the disabled community is important because the view of aspergers as difference not disablity is still a fringe one thus our treatment in society and attitudes toward us are often identical to those faced by the disabled. Also as Sarah said it's something of great interest and importence to me and I have a hard time STOPPING talking about stuff like that/I'm the same with ALL of my obessions as I'm sure you've noticed.
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