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Post by Lemon Bloody Cola on Aug 17, 2010 21:56:54 GMT
i refuse to get involved in this because there's just too much ridiculousness and offensiveness coming from josh's posts, and florence is holding the corner very well. i just wanted to register my opinion. Do grow up and learn to cope with the fact that other people might have different opinions/perceptions of the world to you. I might not like that you find my thoughts ridiculous, but fair enough. To brand my views which have positive intent and have been perfectly politely expressed as "offensive" galls me. By all means dismantle or even mock my ideas but that that seems to verge on branding me prejudiced. In some cases in modern society the "liberal" faction of the power elite (within the media/academia and so forth) that is part of controlling ideas and our colllective cultural dialogue branding people misogynistic/racist/homophobic is both the modern equiverlant of branding people who diveraged from conventional thought as witches in the middle ages and also the lefts equiverlant of the demonisation of immigriants/feminsts/gays and so on from the conservative power elite. It's all about CONTROL. Discrediting opposing ideas via attaching words that hold deep power in society to them, rather than though reasoned debate. This is part of the reason why feminists and and people on the left get an unfair rap among many ordinary people on the street. I have no time for ideology really.. I love ideas, but ideology is the process of turning idea into a BELIEF a much more concrete and inflexiable thing. There's also a solidarity to members of an ideological grouping which breeds a collective ego, and a need for an "other" on the outside to define yourself against. Therefore anyone who opposes a groups basic ideological belief is likey to be attacked to protect the belief system and collective ego people have emotionally invested so much in. Don't be so intellectually tribal.
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Post by sarah on Aug 17, 2010 22:13:12 GMT
explain the last thing florence? granted it is a bit cheesey but like, they're just doing a nice gesture. if a girl did it would it matter? don't waiters do that in general in fairly "upmarket" places? I can only really explain it in terms of 'that's how I feel', and why. If I was out with a man in a restraunt and I pulled out his chair for him, then he would be embarrased, and the people in the restraunt would think it was weiiird. Social taboo. All I can say's that it's one social norm slash tradtional 'ritual' which makes me personally embarrased and uncomfortable, and which, as a feminist, I wouldn't want performed for me - because of where the act of pulling out a womens chair for her (and other similar acts of chivalry) originate from. The position of women in society has evolved almost beyond recognition since the days when these chivalric acts first became commonplace. There's a reason why no new acts of chivalry have emerged and collectively become habits in oh, say, the last 100 years. They're just not meant for a modern female, ie. a female who is 'equal'. It's like a (less extreme form) of being offended by certain words. Some people think 'dude, it's just a word, who cares?' and some people are offended by words because of their cultural connotations and origins. I would be - not offended by - but made uncomfortable by the act, through much the same reasoning. But if other women don't feel that way, then I don't mind at all. I agree with your last point about teaching everyone to be polite and not-dicks. The day I could stand behind my (hypothetical) man and gently assist him while he sits down at the dinnertable, without getting funny looks from fellow diners, is the day I will let a man do it back to me. And obviously, I am all for non-patronising, non-gender-specific acts of kindness (and assistance-carrying-luggage, where it is needed). ahh yes, i see what you mean now. think i'm just totally oblivious to stuff like that, if i were the sort of person to pull chairs out for people i'd do it for anyone without a CARE IN THE WORLD. as it stands i think pulling chairs out for people is pretty weird.
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Post by helwin tins on Aug 17, 2010 22:20:06 GMT
i refuse to get involved in this because there's just too much ridiculousness and offensiveness coming from josh's posts, and florence is holding the corner very well. i just wanted to register my opinion. Do grow up and learn to accept the cope with the fact that other people might have different opinions/perceptions of the world to you. do grow up and stop saying offensive shit. your post makes no sense so i'm not going to answer it.
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Post by tarantella on Aug 17, 2010 22:22:21 GMT
A thousand exalts to Florence.
My thoughts are: If you get to the door first and want to be polite to the person behind you, hold the door open for them. If they seem resistant, let it go and allow them to handle the door themselves. For all such situations, do not persist or try to push another person when they decline your polite gesture/"help."
I like holding doors open for people, and I like other people holding doors open for me when it's done casually. But when a guy makes a sweeping production out of it or absolutely refuses to go through first -- which has happened to me with more than one guy -- it pisses me off. Because then what could have just been a nice gesture is made into a controlling act.
The anecdote I'm going to give now may be TMI, just a warning: There was this guy I was seeing when I was nineteen, who was seven years older than me. I was still pretty inexperienced. The guy was nice and a fairly decent person, but he was pushy. He wouldn't split the bill with me, he wouldn't let me open doors for myself. He also pushed me into doing things sexually before I wanted to do them. It wasn't rape, but he definitely took advantage of my youth and uncertainty.
You want to know how to stop street abuse? Teach women to be independent, and teach men to respect the personhood of women. That means if she's walking to the grocery store, don't harass her. Her body is not there for you to whistle at, shout at, touch or grope. Her body is there because she's going to get groceries.
eta: The notion of 'helping' can be so complex -- you may have the best intentions and still hurt someone. It's so important to be careful about how you approach other people. Think about asking a woman, "Can I help you?" or "Do you need assistance?" while respecting their personal space, versus standing right next to them and saying, "Let me carry your bag for you." The latter can easily be perceived as threatening or controlling.
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Post by Lemon Bloody Cola on Aug 17, 2010 22:32:03 GMT
do grow up and stop saying offensive shit. Is that how it is on wolfboard now or more accuratly with you Sibz? That anyone who doesn't tow the liberal/feminist party line is "offensive?" I honestly can't see anything else offensive in what I've said. The debate about if gender is socialised or neurologically ingrained is a huge one with tons of academic support on both sides. Is only one side allowed to be represented here? It makes me laugh that you claim to be a champion of diversity. your post makes no sense so i'm not going to answer it. I suggest you work on your reading comprehension.
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Post by sarah on Aug 17, 2010 22:45:47 GMT
i don't really think anyone other than you is finding this offensive sibz, it's just a discussion.
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Post by wakefromthysleep on Aug 17, 2010 22:48:15 GMT
ohhhh exalt button, where have you gone? ...
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Post by Lawrence on Aug 17, 2010 22:49:52 GMT
While my ideal date would be a guy I saw (both of us fully clothed) washing his hands in the gents at Bush Hall at the end of the gig (where did he go?), we would both pull out our own chairs and split the bill equally
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Post by sarah on Aug 17, 2010 22:50:29 GMT
AHHAHAHAHA <3
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Post by jay on Aug 17, 2010 22:51:20 GMT
yeah, i was really enjoying reading this discussion up until it got weird and personal all up in this joint.
i'd contribute but i think i'd just be rehashing what florence and tara have been saying, although i do completely understand where josh is coming from as well. i hate being one of those people with a seemingly flip-floppy opinion but i've been offended when men have made a huge deal out of doing something for me, and i've also felt a little upset when my boyfriend doesn't offer me his coat or something like that. my mum's boyfriend opens the car door for her and everything, he is a strong believer in chivalry and i've told her i'd find it so weird if my boyfriend acted like that. but it makes my mum happy, so i'm happy for her.
the only thing i'd really like to say is, and it's rather obvious, but men have oestrogen and women have testosterone too, just not in huge amounts... that is all.
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Post by Lemon Bloody Cola on Aug 17, 2010 22:55:24 GMT
While my ideal date would be a guy I saw (both of us fully clothed) washing his hands in the gents at Bush Hall at the end of the gig (where did he go?), we would both pull out our own chairs and split the bill equally You win the thread. Do you really want to keep it though?
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Post by lastgoodbye on Aug 17, 2010 22:59:04 GMT
YOU GUYS, I wrote out a massive big post in response to Josh's last reply (to me), and in the midst of all the dramaz, it has been lost. HERE IS MY RUSHED REPLY. It involved an acknowledgement of the fact that we always disagree on nature vs. nurture Josh, and that's fine, and we can continue to agree to disagree Even though, most modern and recent scientific studies / reports (sceintific, not sociological) are beginning to support the idea of nurture over nature, especially when it comes to gender and behavioural differences. I'll try find one to support this point. Also, I didn't mean to misconstrue your words regarding the 'hassle' of women. But women being hassled by men on the street + say, the fact that one in four women will be raped or sexually assulted in her lifetime (compared to 1 in 33 men) - these are two problems, on different scales, but which stem from the same societal causes. I was merely extending to argument to it's full... extent. "What's your solution? To change the mechanics of the society and therefore the process of socialisation?" 1. At this point, socializing boys to behave more chivalrously would be "changing the mechanics of society" just as much as socialising boys to not treat women as the weaker sex/as objects/ as their property/etc would do (cos chivalry is dead and that). 2. Thousands of women have been abused and mistreated by men... since the beginning of time. Sorry to be bleak. 3. We are, in modern times, seeing improvements in this state of affairs. Bringing back chivalry as a temporary fix would cause more harm than good, seeing as chivalry (in both it's current and traditional form) completely contradicts the idea of gender equality.
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Post by lastgoodbye on Aug 17, 2010 23:00:24 GMT
While my ideal date would be a guy I saw (both of us fully clothed) washing his hands in the gents at Bush Hall at the end of the gig (where did he go?), we would both pull out our own chairs and split the bill equally ;D ;D ;D
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Post by helwin tins on Aug 17, 2010 23:01:14 GMT
i don't really think anyone other than you is finding this offensive sibz, it's just a discussion. I don't buy this kind of talk at ALLLLLLL. In fact it offends me, a lot. oh, and guess what, i don't particularly care whether other people get offended. i've never judged my ethics against other people's, mainly because most people are severely lacking in any. as a feminist, i have every right to label opinions i find sexist to be offensive.
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Post by sarah on Aug 17, 2010 23:02:38 GMT
why are you always so angry
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snorlaxio
Libertine
you jelly??????
Posts: 97
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Post by snorlaxio on Aug 17, 2010 23:03:59 GMT
A man opened a door for her once.
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Post by Lemon Bloody Cola on Aug 17, 2010 23:07:30 GMT
Nature vs nuture is a much bigger debate than all this, and the "where does gender come from?" issue is just one facet of it. Mr politically moderate agnostic over here of course.. straddle the fence on that one! I think logically we are mixture of our genetics AND our enviroment.
From my world view of "different but equal" chivalry doesn't contradict gender equality. Call it simplistic if you will but I just believe young boys should be taught to treat women respectfully; that's the crux of it for me.
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snorlaxio
Libertine
you jelly??????
Posts: 97
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Post by snorlaxio on Aug 17, 2010 23:12:43 GMT
From my world view of "different but equal" chivalry doesn't contradict gender equality. Call it simplistic if you will but I just believe young boys should be taught to treat women respectfully; that's the crux of it for me. Young boys should be taught to treat everyone respectfully. That's how I was brought up and that's how I behave. I open doors for everyone, and I wait most of the time for people to enter before I do because I feel like i'm being well mannered and polite. This thread makes me sad because now i'm paranoid that someone's going to be horrendously offended by something I just do anyway.
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Post by Lawrence on Aug 17, 2010 23:14:19 GMT
SNAP
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Post by sarah on Aug 17, 2010 23:14:23 GMT
if you do anything nice for me again i'll fucking smash you
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