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Post by jadeface on Mar 28, 2010 17:15:56 GMT
It doesn't look like the definition of virginity has been at all discussed on here though. What arte you all considering it? I feel that oral sex is sex, and I'm counting that. Penetrative sex only would up my age to 19. But I've never been sympathetic to the view that having a dick shoved in my face isn't sex and I can still be considered all pure and chaste after the fact. Oh I hadn't thought of that. LOL you worded it really funny, hahahaha. I was defining my virginity as penetrative. Otherwise I would've been.... 15 I think. However the things that happened at that age weren't 100% consensual, in terms of I had a friend who was super manipulative and sort of scary, and TOLD me what I was going to do/he was going to do to me. Neither of those, enjoyable. Obviously I could have walked away from it, though. Thinking about it, abuse can come into things here, not that it's a topic that people are particularly comfortable with. If people are abused do you consider that their virginity has been taken from them? I think virginity maybe comes into consensual sex. It's probably unfair to say losing virginity = any sex. I'm lucky that I have never had to consider this situation. I have been close to abuse, but never abused. Many people close to me have been. edit: People don't have to talk about this, by the way, it's quite a big one.
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Post by Lemon Bloody Cola on Mar 28, 2010 17:44:59 GMT
If people are abused do you consider that their virginity has been taken from them? Technically, yes, spiritually, no. I believe the physical act of genital penetration (or any of the other myriad of sexual acts) and making love are two entirely separate entities despite having the same physical manifestation. I believe a person almost has two virginity's, and if a person has never had sex with some who really likes them, and wants to show them a good time .. they're in many ways a virgin. I would never have sex with someone I didn't love (I don't mean "in love with" just I'd have to actually care about anyone I slept with a great deal) because I'm just not a physical person.. but different approaches work for different people and I'd never judge anyone for having a different approach to their sexuality. Though I do believe promiscuity is psychologically unhealthy. A self violation (of varying degrees of severity based on the extent and the individual) ,though we ALL do things that are physically and psychologically unhealthy, we all have our vices. Sex is beautiful and wonderful and thrilling, but it's a tremendously powerful exchange of psychological and spiritual energy, and that power needs to be respected. It's like fire (yyyeaaahh this sex is on... SHUT UP!) beautiful and life-sustaining but if you ain't careful you can get BURNED. ps, you poor lamb Jade apologies on behalf of my gender for sexual predators of all stripes.
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Post by jadeface on Mar 28, 2010 17:52:50 GMT
That's a really nice way of thinking about it. Thanks. And I am the same, I have only ever been sexually involved with people I have cared about (bar that manipulative relationship although I guess I did 'care' or I wouldn't have stuck around). I have only had full sex with two people, and the second being the person who I have been with for three years now. But the first was a good friend and we weren't in love with each other at all, and I actually never thought for a second about having a relationship with him, and neither did he think about that with me (as far as I'm aware).
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Post by tarantella on Mar 28, 2010 20:02:01 GMT
I consider any consensual sexual experience to be sex. So consensual mutual masturbation = sex, rape =/= sex.
Virginity is such a weird construct. I lost mine -- and why is there this association with losing, anyway? It just feeds into those stupid abstinence-education flower petal metaphors, grr. Pardon, I'll start again. I gained sexual experience when I was 19, and it was so... anti-climactic. Literally as well. There wasn't any pain or hymen rupturing, and it was nice but not great. It was much more boring than I had expected it would be. Later attempts were better, luckily.
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Post by wakefromthysleep on Mar 28, 2010 20:27:53 GMT
It's like fire (yyyeaaahh this sex is on... SHUT UP!) beautiful and life-sustaining but if you ain't careful you can get BURNED. This reminds me of a song: "They cluster to me Like moths around a flame And if their wings burn I know I'm not to blame" and I agree with having virginity twice.
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Post by idreamofcherrypies on Mar 28, 2010 20:57:33 GMT
This reminds me of a song: "They cluster to me Like moths around a flame And if their wings burn I know I'm not to blame" What film does someone sing that little bit in? It's been driving me mad trying to remember. Ooh I think it's Jane Horrocks in Little Voice actually. And to be on-topic: It's weird but I had actually never considered 'sex' to count as anything other than penetration. This thread's been a real eye-opener in some ways. Though I do believe promiscuity is psychologically unhealthy. How do you mean, it's a sign of psychological unhealthiness or a cause of it?
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Post by wakefromthysleep on Mar 28, 2010 21:01:49 GMT
What film does someone sing that little bit in? It's been driving me mad trying to remember. Ooh I think it's Jane Horrocks in Little Voice actually. no idea in what film you mean. It's Klaus Nomi - Falling in love again
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Post by husbandwifeheroin on Mar 28, 2010 21:21:39 GMT
Though I do believe promiscuity is psychologically unhealthy. How do you mean, it's a sign of psychological unhealthiness or a cause of it? It can be a sign of Borderline Personality Disorder.
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Post by Xteenuh on Mar 28, 2010 21:27:33 GMT
Virginity is such a weird construct. I lost mine -- and why is there this association with losing, anyway? It just feeds into those stupid abstinence-education flower petal metaphors, grr. Pardon, I'll start again. I gained sexual experience when I was 19, and it was so... anti-climactic. Literally as well. There wasn't any pain or hymen rupturing, and it was nice but not great. It was much more boring than I had expected it would be. Later attempts were better, luckily. Ah, virginity and the hymen. Two concepts I do not like, because they are both weird and hard to understand. I actually just did an extensive hymen research on google, I guess I feel a little bit better about it but... its still fuckin' weird. My sex education in school/at home totally sucked and now here I am at age 18, googling the female reproductive system... Anyway... virginity. I don't really believe in virginity to be honest. Its just a dumb construct really. I don't like the notion of "losing" it either... probably because it doesn't exist, in my mind. I don't really get why having not had sex and having had sex needs this weird label to go with it, especially a label that has to do with being all good 'n pure... i mean i see how and why that all came about but its still stupid. STUPID, I TELL YOU. But I did answer this poll as "i'm a virgin", but phrased differently, I will say i've never had any form of sex.
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Post by idreamofcherrypies on Mar 28, 2010 21:27:52 GMT
Oh I liked that. I just checked, it's from Marlene Dietrich's film The Blue Angel, although I only know it because Jane Horrocks sings it in the film Little Voice in her Marilyn Monroe/Judy Garland medley.
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Miyamashi
Empress
Is a Psychosomatic Princess
Posts: 155
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Post by Miyamashi on Mar 31, 2010 3:41:01 GMT
I was 18, almost 19. One significant other for about 3 months, and nothing since. Said significant other was first everything. I definitely agree with the idea that you lose your virginity when you have any kind of sex. Beside, if it was just penetrative vaginal intercourse that defined virginity, you'd have a lot of "virgin" gays and lesbians who've had a lot of sex. I also count oral as sex. I've known a few different girls who've given a lot of head and say they're virgins. If the guy is getting his bits touched up, the person doing it is just as "dirty". XD (Same with guys giving oral to girls. The guy using his tongue is no more innocent than the girl with a tongue in her.) I also think hands are just as bad as mouths. XD
God, I'm so crude. XD
On the subject of ages of consent, I think the more important thing is good sex education. If people actually know what they're getting into, know how to do it, and know the consequences, they're less likely to do it before they're ready, and if they do, they're more likely to do so safely. I'm talking REAL sex education, where you learn the biology, you learn the hormones, you learn the emotional aspect, and (a part that a lot of sex ed lacks), you learn about masturbation as well. I think the consent laws should be in there more to protect those who cannot consent against those trying to get them to have sex.
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Post by Tellurium on Mar 31, 2010 4:15:53 GMT
I'm so happy you said this. It's something I feel like I'm always pointing out to people, but it never seems to register with anyone. There are so MANY people I've talked to who will insist that "lesbians don't have sex! I don't get what they do!" and they drive me bonkers. So lesbians can't have penetrative sex, so they never have sex period? End of story? And I guess the 40% of gay men who don't engage in anal sex are also on that bizarre heteronormative list of perpetual virgins?
I guess we need to change the word to homononsexual.
Big pet peeve of mine. People make me shake my head sadly.
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Post by tarantella on Mar 31, 2010 5:50:55 GMT
^ Oh, yikes. I can't believe there are still people who think that. you learn about masturbation as well. Oh my god, THIS. I firmly believe that masturbation needs to be taught (yes, not just discussed, but TAUGHT) in sex ed, as well as proper use of sex toys. Kids need to learn to feel okay with themselves sexually and learn what they like, especially before they go on to have sex with each other. This just makes sense! Okay, more Things That Schools Should Do wrt sex ed (in no particular order): 1) Bring an expert in to teach the sex ed unit. No, seriously. Leave the poor science teachers out of it! It only makes things worse when your teacher that you see everyday is blushing and visibly uncomfortable in front of you. Who's going to want to actually ask them questions? Also, sometimes they give BAD information. 2) Talk about CONSENT. Talk about how to not be a rapist! For girls, especially, talk about how it's not only okay to say 'no,' it's important to make sure they clearly communicate what they do and don't want. 3) Following from #2, talk about how to be a considerate sex partner. There are definitely wrong ways of going about it! (See: rape.) But it is okay to not know exactly what you're doing, which is why it's so important to communicate with your partner. Make sure you're both having a good time. 4) Teach kids about feminism! Girls (and everyone else) are seriously fed so much shit about gender roles, and are made to feel so much shame about their bodies and desires. I think education should be responsible for promoting body positivity. Also, feminists have better sex. It's true. What sorts of changes would you all like to see made to sex ed?
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Post by Lemon Bloody Cola on Mar 31, 2010 7:29:53 GMT
Oh my god, THIS. I firmly believe that masturbation needs to be taught (yes, not just discussed, but TAUGHT) in sex ed, as well as proper use of sex toys Yeah, predictable Mr Unenlightened here... but... eww Like all your other suggestions however, other than possibly teaching kids about feminism unless they're taught opposite/opposing views side by side. I don't think schools should be pushing any specific political ideaology at kids.
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Post by tarantella on Mar 31, 2010 8:17:26 GMT
I've been reading Savage Love long enough to know that kids develop all sorts of crazy masturbatory habits when left to their own devices, many of them with unfavorable long term consequences (never varying technique, guys using a death grip, etc.) and some of them potentially harmful (diy is great for lots of things, but not for penetrative sex toys!). I think it is a good idea for kids to be told that they really should just go buy a dildo instead of sticking a bottle/broom handle/whatever into their orifices.
I think classes in gender studies (and ethnic studies) should be implemented and mandatory in high school, but that's another subject. For sex ed, I really just mean notions of sex positivity and body positivity should be discussed. I can't speak for anyone else, but messages from the opposing viewpoint (that sex is bad, you're a slut if you want it, you'll get STIs/get pregnant/die if you have it, blah blah blah) came through to me as a teen loud and clear. That shit gets enough airtime.
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Post by Lemon Bloody Cola on Mar 31, 2010 8:31:38 GMT
I've been reading Savage Love long enough to know that kids develop all sorts of crazy masturbatory habits when left to their own devices, many of them with unfavorable long term consequences (never varying technique, guys using a death grip, etc.) and some of them potentially harmful (diy is great for lots of things, but not for penetrative sex toys!). I think it is a good idea for kids to be told that they really should just go buy a dildo instead of sticking a bottle/broom handle/whatever into their orifices. I know.. I just don't know how an adult could teach kids to masturbate without it being wildy creepy and mortifying for everyone involved.. plus creating a shit storm of controversy from parts of society. For sex ed, I really just mean notions of sex positivity and body positivity should be discussed. I can't speak for anyone else, but messages from the opposing viewpoint (that sex is bad, you're a slut if you want it, you'll get STIs/get pregnant/die if you have it, blah blah blah) came through to me as a teen loud and clear. That shit gets enough airtime. Don't get me wrong I 100% agree with you on a personal level about sex positivity. You do however, much as I disagree with them somewhat pastiche the valid views of the abstinence crowd and "traditional" sexual morality. What I believe or, what you believe is irrelevant here, the point is any education of children needs to be as neutral as possible and respectful of all points of view. I agree there should be more sex/body positive stuff taught to kids, but it shouldn't be exclusive. Give the kids the infomation from both sides of the argument and allow them to make their own minds up.
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Post by jadeface on Mar 31, 2010 10:00:04 GMT
Yeah, I hated having a dirty pervy science teacher talking about sex. I'd rather have had someone come in from out school, someone that you probably won't see again, as then people wouldn't have felt icky about asking questions.
I probably didn't understand a lot of things for a while, which is why I didn't do them. Most of my friends went the other way, and did things BECAUSE they didn't understand them. My friends thought I was weird for not having sex until after it was legal, I think they thought they had 'one up' on me for that, and when I told them I had, they bought me a card saying congratulations (hawhaw sofunny). But I'm dubious about one of my friends, I don't think she's ever had sex, but she just lied about it.
I hate it when people lie about their sexual experience. If someone doesn't want to talk about it then that's fine, but some people brag about doing this that and the other, when they haven't. I know it's because they're insecure, or something, but it's unnecessary.
I remember seeing something on TV about sex education in other countries, and I can't remember where it was but teenagers were shown videos about masturbation (animated images by the way) and also foreplay with a partner. The kids weren't giggling or anything, they were just watching it. If that was shown here we'd all be squirming and whatnot.
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Post by jay on Mar 31, 2010 14:07:54 GMT
all of tara's points sound like the kind of sex and relationship (yes, we didn't just talk about sex, we discussed relationships as well!) education i gave when i was part of a peer teaching program. i really enjoyed it and before signing up i thought i'd be really embarrassed about discussing sex with a bunch of 14 year olds but i wasn't at all. it was great, and the feedback we got was great, too - because we were only four years older than the students being taught, they found they could open up to us more and discuss things that they couldn't discuss with their teachers. but then i'm always bringing up the fact i was in that program.. you can see the kind of things we did here, if you're interested.
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Post by lastgoodbye on Apr 1, 2010 14:54:26 GMT
^ They offered Apause at my high school! I really wanted to take part in teaching it, but then I switched high schools so I couldn't. I'm glad it's obviously still being done, though.
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Post by Lemon Bloody Cola on Apr 1, 2010 21:49:23 GMT
"SORRY THIS IS SO LONG! also, shouldn't this be in community room? "
Nope, in depth discussion "of general interest" unless my partner disagrees I think it belongs here.
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