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Post by Clare on Jun 21, 2007 13:28:17 GMT
They're connected because I believe that the capitalist system exploits patriarchy for economic gain and to support the bourgeois hegemony. It sounds like claptrap, but I don't know how else to express this idea that our divisions in society leave us too busy fighting each other to fight the system, if that makes sense?
It's like Marmite, though. You agree or don't agree, but I've never really met people who are in the middle.
Alei: depends. There are different sorts of Socialism, and I've not fully made up my mind. Some of my friends believe in a system called market Socialism - like capitalism, but the means of production are owned by workers and therefore profit no longer belongs to one person, but many. The market functions on the same demand/supply system that capitalism does. It has the advantages of capitalism, but fewer downfalls; and is more sustainable.
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Post by tombland on Jun 21, 2007 13:34:12 GMT
They're connected because I believe that the capitalist system exploits patriarchy for economic gain and to support the bourgeois hegemony. It sounds like claptrap, but I don't know how else to express this idea that our divisions in society leave us too busy fighting each other to fight the system, if that makes sense? So the capitalist system - which is patriarchal - is exploiting itself to support the bourgeois dominated society? I've gotta say, I don't know if you just miscommunicated, but that's nonsensical. And I still can't see why they're interdependent.
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Post by stentorsrevenge on Jun 21, 2007 13:40:03 GMT
Alei: depends. There are different sorts of Socialism, and I've not fully made up my mind. Some of my friends believe in a system called market Socialism - like capitalism, but the means of production are owned by workers and therefore profit no longer belongs to one person, but many. The market functions on the same demand/supply system that capitalism does. It has the advantages of capitalism, but fewer downfalls; and is more sustainable. That's really interesting! I will have to look into that. I would like to see that happen here. hah ;D
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Post by Jacques Snaefells on Jun 21, 2007 13:40:58 GMT
I think what it is, is that the bourgeoisie need patriarchy because, for one thing, it is a distraction in society which helps us to ignore the capitalist exploitation, but it alsothat patriarchy sustains and reproduces the workforce i.e. the mother will give birth, care for her children and socialise them into the norms and the false consciousness that maintains capitalism.
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Post by Clare on Jun 21, 2007 13:51:10 GMT
I think maybe I used the wrong word - "exploits" is not quite right.
Capitalism couldn't function if it didn't drive us apart. The working class would get sick of being exploited, and rise up. Patriarchy is encouraged by capitalism because it keeps people apart and, hey, who doesn't benefit from paying women less?
Patriarchy existed pre-capitalism, and continues to exist hand-in-hand with it; but I believe the first step to destroying patriarchy is to take down capitalism. Of course, it wouldn't destroy totally all sexist attitudes, but it would go a long way towards it.
I don't think I'm making any sense now, my brain has been melted by Shakespeare.
Jacques knows what time it is. Thumbs up for you.
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Post by blake on Jun 21, 2007 13:55:17 GMT
Capitalism couldn't function if it didn't drive us apart. The working class would get sick of being exploited, and rise up. Patriarchy is encouraged by capitalism because it keeps people apart and, hey, who doesn't benefit from paying women less? But doesn't socialism still want to drive us apart, just in a different way? I.e class war..
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Post by Clare on Jun 21, 2007 13:57:28 GMT
Socialism wants to eradicate class - class war is just a vehicle for Socialism. In the end - no classes, no gender boundaries, no distinction between races, etc.
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Post by tombland on Jun 21, 2007 14:00:21 GMT
I think calling it a patriarchy is stupid as it would be exactly the same in a matriarchy. So just gender inequalities will do. I do agree, to an extent, with what you're saying about capitalism and inequalities. But to link a single inequality, namely the patriarchal nature of society, so strongly with capitalism is an absolute fallacy! Capitalism breeds on inequality, yes, but there are so many inequalities in this world that one or another doesn't make too huge a difference. Little more than a drop in the ocean. And the largest problem in society is the gender inequalitiesthrough people's views. And people's views on gender are not going to be changed hugely in a socialist revolution, like you said.
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Post by blake on Jun 21, 2007 14:02:36 GMT
Socialism wants to eradicate class - class war is just a vehicle for Socialism. In the end - no classes, no gender boundaries, no distinction between races, etc. But in the meantime you are going to have to do something to overthrow the capitalist order and those in the upper, middle and even working classes who would actively oppose socialist revolution to eventually reach that stage right? Sorry if I seem harsh but I'm a former socialist who's rejected the ideology myself. It's really cool to meet someone who actually has ideals they've clearly thought hard about and that mean a lot to them. Exalts for Clare.
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Post by Clare on Jun 21, 2007 14:03:16 GMT
Well, I wouldn't say that capitalism just breeds one sort of inequality. It does a lot of bad craic. Sexism is just one of them. Thus being why we need cool-as-fuck feminists. Wow, full thread circle! Socialism wants to eradicate class - class war is just a vehicle for Socialism. In the end - no classes, no gender boundaries, no distinction between races, etc. But in the meantime you are going to have to do something to overthrow the capitalist order and those in the upper, middle and even working classes who would actively oppose socialist revolution to eventually reach that stage right? Sorry if I seem harsh but I'm a former socialist who's rejected the ideology myself. It's really cool to meet someone who actually has ideals they've clearly thought hard about and that mean a lot to them. Exalts for Clare. Well, like I said earlier, Marx said we reach a point where capitalism crashes and burns. Hopefully, when we reach that point? Folk will start to work together. Of course, the upper classes were never going to like it; but in the end? If it means their survival? They might play ball. Like I said: right now? I'm selling newspapers. It's gash, cliché and involves a lot of questions like, "So, what's a nice young lady like you doing with these cultists?" But it gets people interested in alternative ideologies, at the very least.
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Post by tombland on Jun 21, 2007 14:07:43 GMT
Well, that's the impression you gave out by linking them so strongly in this revolution. Basically, I cannot see why we'd need a revolution to make men and women equal. Just because I can't see this big chain that's connecting this particular inequality to capitalism.
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Post by blake on Jun 21, 2007 14:09:15 GMT
Well, like I said earlier, Marx said we reach a point where capitalism crashes and burns. Hopefully, when we reach that point? Folk will start to work together. Of course, the upper classes were never going to like it; but in the end? If it means their survival? They might play ball Hmm I don't buy that really. To me it seems strikingly parallel to the Christian idea of the Rapture/End Times, though thats probably more an insight on the odd way my mind works than anything else.
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Post by Clare on Jun 21, 2007 14:09:13 GMT
Ahhh, I apologise. I am less than coherant at the best of times. Well, like I said earlier, Marx said we reach a point where capitalism crashes and burns. Hopefully, when we reach that point? Folk will start to work together. Of course, the upper classes were never going to like it; but in the end? If it means their survival? They might play ball Hmm I don't buy that really. To me it seems strikingly parallel to the Christian idea of the Rapture/End Times, though thats probably more an insight on the odd way my mind works than anything else. I just can't see how capitalism is sustainable.
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Post by Jacques Snaefells on Jun 21, 2007 14:16:07 GMT
Doesn't Marx describe it as "The end of History"? A revolution in his eyes was to put an end to all inequalities, therefore it would be an end of history because there would be no more inequality to fight about. Obviously he saw class as the greatest source of conflict, but I think he was aware that gender, race etc. were also significant sources that would require some sort of action.
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Post by blake on Jun 21, 2007 14:21:47 GMT
Doesn't Marx describe it as "The end of History"? A revolution in his eyes was to put an end to all inequalities, therefore it would be an end of history because there would be no more inequality to fight about. Obviously he saw class as the greatest source of conflict, but I think he was aware that gender, race etc. were also significant sources that would require some sort of action. Wow the more I think about this concept the more I think it's a secular version of the End Times theory .. I think I may research more and write something brilliant about that. C'mon "The End Of History", "The End Times?" both proclaim some sort of period of great chaos, that will end with the people who have waited patiently and believe the right ideology creating a new glorious Utopia on earth! Marxism is the opium of (some of) the people.
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Post by Jacques Snaefells on Jun 21, 2007 14:29:20 GMT
Yes, the same thought has struck me before when I was in class but I never engaged myself to think about it thoroughly. I try to refrain from having revelatory thoughts in public places for fear that I'll embarrass myself with the excitement .
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Post by bluearrangements on Jun 21, 2007 14:41:45 GMT
Traveling really shows you how lucky we are as women to be living in Britain. And I'm not talking about cultures too different from ours, I'm talking about where I am right now. Malaga, a cosmpolitan city of Spain where women are treated like crap. Hissed at, spat at, approached by leery men ALL THE TIME. An old man pinched my bum in the street the other day. It was DISGUSTING. You cannot walk anywhere by yourself without creating unwanted attention. There is also a hell of a lot of domestic violence towards women here. I guess Spain has been a bit slow to catch up on the changes of social attitudes with that knob in power up until 75, but it makes me so glad to have come from the U.K, because men. here. ugh. I realise this is a horrible generalising statement. I am sure than they are actually lovely people, it's just that the majority have little respect for women. Before coming here I wasn't all that bothered about feminism because I never saw much evidence of sexual discrimination. Now I am acutely aware of how I am treated as a woman, and much more sensitive to any inequalities there may be, no matter how small. I am even veering on the man-hating side of things, because it seems that they either have alterior motives, or just don't want to talk to me because all their attentions are focused on the cheap blonde next to me because they 'look well up for it'. I love my dad, obviously, but even he is an arsehole.
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Post by stentorsrevenge on Jun 21, 2007 14:45:01 GMT
^^ That's terrible. I'm sorry you live in such a bad area. I take my home for granted.
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Post by bluearrangements on Jun 21, 2007 14:51:20 GMT
Oh and why the fuck to I have to be the one to get pregnant and fat if I ever want children, when all he'd have to do was stick it in and then bugger off with someone else cos he loves me but isn't in love with me any more because my stretch marks are ugly....?
Dear God, Assuming that you exist (which you probably don't, but whatever) I have a question to ask you. Is this supposed to be some kind of joke? I like the stork idea better. Cheers
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Post by bluearrangements on Jun 21, 2007 14:52:31 GMT
^^ That's terrible. I'm sorry you live in such a bad area. I take my home for granted. It's only for two more weeks! ;D
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