Natalie
Apparition
Rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men.
Posts: 7
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Post by Natalie on Sept 7, 2010 17:06:36 GMT
New school year, new topics. In philosophy we're starting on the question of whether or not human beings have free will, and if they do, to what extent. I thought this was a very interesting question, but most of the people in my group are very quiet, and I was hoping some of you would have some interesting takes on this that you would actually be able to express.
So please share your views.
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Post by helwin tins on Sept 7, 2010 17:08:57 GMT
i hate determinism. it's glorified excuses by lazy people.
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Natalie
Apparition
Rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men.
Posts: 7
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Post by Natalie on Sept 7, 2010 17:17:40 GMT
Not really. But that's a very casual way to dismiss something. Why is it lazy? Because it diminishes responsibility? That doesn't make decisions any easier to make in reality.
If anyone's interested in a religious element : God is all knowing and infallible. God gave us free will. Try and reconcile these statements.
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Post by Lemon Bloody Cola on Sept 7, 2010 17:24:16 GMT
I sometimes feel that life is like a neatly stacked, amazingly intricate house of cards.. people's actions seem to take a sort of predertmined "role" such is the uniformity and even predictablity of human behaviour and history... I think people's place in the world can be shock up though force of will but it still seems like people do get nailed to a certain path that can feel mapped out.
There's a comforting side to the idea that everything that happens in life is "how it should be".. destiny that everything including error, stupidity, evil and pain is just an essential part of that house of cards. But it's also a pretty depressing notion to think we have no geniune control over our lives. All our views on this one will be skewed by life experiences and as someone who feels really detached from the hustle, bustle and noise of the wider world and also feels a lack of control over his life the easy optiion would be for me to believe in determinism, but because I don't have faith in my own intellectual objectivity I'm staying on the fence.
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Post by Lemon Bloody Cola on Sept 7, 2010 17:28:27 GMT
If anyone's interested in a religious element : God is all knowing and infallible. God gave us free will. Try and reconcile these statements. You can't because the Christian/Abrahamic theology that's been strung together over the last two thousand years and even the many authored Christian Bible just aren't consistent or coherent.. philosophically or otherwise. ..and this is coming from a bloke who could be classed as a Christian! (in the sense that I lean towards a belief in God and believe in Christ and his teachings) |
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Post by Rhiflect on Sept 7, 2010 17:32:58 GMT
I think that we do have free will, but, somehow, because the choices we make are part of our personality and nature/nurture etc etc, the choices are already made. I.e., the 'path' we take already goes so far ahead in one direction, unless we have a complete personality overhaul.
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Natalie
Apparition
Rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men.
Posts: 7
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Post by Natalie on Sept 7, 2010 17:37:36 GMT
If the choices we make are determined by our nature and character, surely that suggests a lack of any sort of free will. If our decisions are made based on our psycology, then they'll surely just follow certain principles of human behaviour that we could not help but conform with. Bearing in mind, that research has shown that the subconcious mind makes decisions before our concious mind. Therefore, a decision you think you are making intellectually and freely has been decided for you by a far more primitive part of your brain.
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Post by Lemon Bloody Cola on Sept 7, 2010 17:43:45 GMT
If the choices we make are determined by our nature and character, surely that suggests a lack of any sort of free will. If our decisions are made based on our psycology, then they'll surely just follow certain principles of human behaviour that we could not help but conform with. Bearing in mind, that research has shown that the subconcious mind makes decisions before our concious mind. Therefore, a decision you think you are making intellectually and freely has been decided for you by a far more primitive part of your brain. You know what.. I pretty much agree with this but I think people CAN via force of well change their subconscious programmming. Is that what the whole history of psychiatry from Freud/Jung to CBT has been about? |
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Natalie
Apparition
Rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men.
Posts: 7
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Post by Natalie on Sept 7, 2010 17:56:02 GMT
You know what.. I pretty much agree with this but I think people CAN via force of well change their subconscious programmming. Is that what the whole history of psychiatry from Freud/Jung to CBT has been about? I think it's possible to change the way you think, but again, that this is predetermined, otherwise where do the thought processes that cause you to seek the change come from? Thus being able to change doesn't indicate any sort of moral mental freedom. |
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Post by Lemon Bloody Cola on Sept 7, 2010 18:18:22 GMT
define "moral" The notion of morals is a subjective human construct, part of the environmental subconscious programming we're talking about, as I see it at least. I don't think it exists as a empirical force outside those parameters. So you viewing that hypothesis as not indicating "true moral freedom" is just part of your programming  I'd say the impetus for change comes from the results of your current programming leading to unhappiness.. cause and effect. |
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Post by helwin tins on Sept 10, 2010 12:30:53 GMT
ughhhhh.
talking within the context of cognitive determinism: this is kind of irrelevant, seeing as we don't understand exactly what consciousness is, and to what extent/where the lines blur with subconsciousness.
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Post by mimicry on Sept 10, 2010 17:23:29 GMT
I believe in CBT
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Post by tarantella on Sept 10, 2010 18:39:08 GMT
Oh yes, cock and ball torture. Which side does that fall on again?
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Post by mimicry on Sept 11, 2010 0:56:19 GMT
I guess if it's consensual then that's free will-- but the lust for sadism is insatiable, so maybe that's predetermined.
Cognitive Behavioral Cock and Ball Torture Therapy - CBCBTT
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Post by allison on Sept 11, 2010 2:03:57 GMT
cbt is bullshit; dbt produces change, imo and experience.
i haven't reached the point where this question (free will v. determinism) is of relevance, personally.
/crazygirl
lol
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Post by mimicry on Sept 12, 2010 5:06:41 GMT
CBT is what helped my brother's OCD the most. Eh, I guess it depends on what you have.
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Post by Rhiflect on Sept 13, 2010 16:12:19 GMT
My mum's been having CBT and she is always really upset when she stops having it. It helps her a lot, I think.
..CBT is Cognital Behavioural Therapy, right?
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