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Post by wakefromthysleep on Aug 18, 2010 1:55:05 GMT
ON-TOPIC POST WOOHOOOOOOOOO:
On my way to London I’ve met a refreshingly polite young man in the train. He had the seat next to me at the window, introduced himself shortly as I sat down and then he asked a bit about me but he wasn’t too nosy. It was nice to know who the one was sitting next to me. Usually I’m the one who starts conversations with foreign people. It felt good the other way round and I don’t think he did that because he was a man who had to play a role. He was a friendly human, not pushy, quite normal. Well.. I wish it actually was normal. I rarely meet people like him (wich is why I found it extraordinary*). Oh yeah, the bag-thing. I was just about carrying my bag off the train myself when we arrived but then he asked if he could help so we carried it together. He said goodbye, wished me a good time and waved before he went a few steps and disappeared in the mass. (Where did he go? ;D)
I want him by my side on my next travel. He wrote lots of pages and I really wanted to know what he wrote but I didn’t dare to ask. I had the feeling that I saw him somewhere before but I can't figure it out where or how. mh.
*probably met too many of that type who say 'after you' at the bottom of stairs just to stare at your ass.
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Post by Rosie The Red on Aug 18, 2010 2:02:12 GMT
I don't really want to get into all these arguments about wording and such like, so I'll just say what I have to say and then disappear back into my corner.
Sorry if you feel I'm just repeating what has already been said, I would just agree with certain people but I feel the issue of the thread's been lost a little, and I wouldn't know where to start.
Personally, I don't have a problem with chivalry. I'm all for the ideas of feminism, but I sometimes think it does get taken too far. If somebody {male or otherwise} wants to go out of their way to help you then I don't see any problem with taking their help. Personally, I hold doors open for anybody who's behind me, and I would expect somebody to do the same for me - not out of chivalry but as a general courtesy.
I'm not sure if you'll see it as particularly relevant, but some of the doors at my school are awkward and heavy, and I'm fairly weak. Sometimes I feel downright pathetic. If I'm struggling to open a door for whatever reason, even if that's purely because I'm female and therefore 'weaker', I would expect help. Sure, I'd probably give whichever guy I was with/stepped forward to help a withering look, but I'd be grateful and thank then, and be more annoyed at my own shortcomings than anything.
The other example, of having a chair pulled out for you by a man: I've never had such a situation occur for me, but I can't imagine I'd like it. I always feel horribly awkward at restaurants if the waiters do this. To be honest though, I feel awkward having people do things for me at the best of times.
Okay, I'm really tired and I don't really know if that was any decent kind of 'argument', or if it lead anywhere, but oh well, you hopefully get the gist.
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Post by Xteenuh on Aug 18, 2010 4:22:03 GMT
I have a male friend who feels the terrible need to be "chivalrous", always trying to pay for my shit when we go out and complaining about feeling all "feminine" ro something when I wanna be the one to drive us around. As much as these things make me want to punch him in his stupid face I know he just means well and is trying to be polite even though he is following these gender-related social standards created by society and designed to allow men to have a certain kind of control over woman that was once more tradition. I mean, it's like the whole idea that women are "delicate" and need to be treated like such princesses by their more "strong and capable" "protector" male mates, and I hate that - but you can tell he was raised on these kinds of "manners" and by god you know how some people just can't escape their breeding.
But feminists need not worry, I basically wore down his little gestures over time by insisting/being totally non-accepting hahaha. Its great for anyone to offer any sort of help or generosity or favor when its needed or perhaps convenient or suggested subtly by the other person to be needed but when its forced upon someone literally just because that's how you're "supposed" to act, even though the other person is still completely capable to do something themselves, its like, LAY OFF. Ladies... ya gotta let your man know.
Also, girls rule and boys drool. JUST KIDDING, I'm not sexist.
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Post by irrelevant on Aug 18, 2010 6:11:44 GMT
resistance is futile. hostile assistance takeover is always a threat.
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Post by irrelevant on Aug 18, 2010 6:20:47 GMT
While my ideal date would be a guy I saw (both of us fully clothed) washing his hands in the gents at Bush Hall at the end of the gig (where did he go?), we would both pull out our own chairs and split the bill equally You win the thread. Do you really want to keep it though? well ya know, there's a magic eye illusion if you print out each one of your posts and tape them together vertically & at an angle depicting your strapping self swooping in to save a beleaguered hannah murray and isobel campbell bound to a stake sitting atop a desolate mountain, fending off misogyny incarnate. breathtaking. [kudos, lawrence ;)]
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Post by irrelevant on Aug 18, 2010 6:25:34 GMT
in short, it's never good to do or say anything ever. truer words have never been spoken then they shall one day make up the circular inscription of my seal of approval, for you.
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Post by Tellurium on Aug 18, 2010 9:47:06 GMT
I'm going to step away from the larger questions of feminism and heterosexual power-structure for a minute, because as a gay guy a lot of that is foreign to me anyway (I offer to pay for my boyfriend, because I know money is finite, and I offer him my coat if he appears to be cold, and I offer to carry his bags if they look heavy, and vice versa, and none of these have the same implications for us, I guess) and go on a little more of practical bent.
There is a significant contingent of women who say that they do appreciate when a man acts "genetlemanly" aka chivalrous, and does things like hold the door and offer his coat et al. Yes these women are probably generally a more socially conservative bunch, but that's not something you're going to know on a first date. And then there's women who say they find those acts awkward.
So, in practical terms, what's a man to do? I know a lot of guys feel confused over how to act around women simply because there is no set "code" anymore, and so many women want different things. I see it as on women now to gently/tactfully direct their male companion to what sort of behaviours they would appreciate, because otherwise the man simply isn't going to know. Being snappy about it is IMO wrong, because even if you do feel patronised because most of the time the guy really isn't trying to be a chauvinistic asshole but is just unsure of what code of conduct to adopt.
*2cents'd*
Also Josh should just be gay.
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Post by Lemon Bloody Cola on Aug 18, 2010 10:12:09 GMT
Also Adam Rickitt should just be gay. Yeah! That's it. Cos if anyone has it easier in our society god knows it's those gays. (end heavy sarcasm)
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Post by Tellurium on Aug 18, 2010 10:24:37 GMT
Heavy sarcasm unneeded since it was obviously a joke and not a serious proposition, but eh.
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Post by Lemon Bloody Cola on Aug 18, 2010 10:47:46 GMT
^ I knew you were joking Derek, it was, as you said perfectly obvious I just thought I'd use it as springboard for my feeble attempt at humour.
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Post by sarah on Aug 18, 2010 10:51:10 GMT
meh, mainly because my browser opens all my bookmarks. i only read two threads or so each day or whatever though. besides which, all i ever really do on here anymore is make a brief post, or picture so what's the big fucking deal if i don't find it the most exciting place in the world? i was bitching on chatzy last night because i had friends there, but apparently something i created in the first fucking place is now too cliquey for me to put forward an opinion that i know people there agreed with. did i say everyone should love this place and if they don't then they're shit? no, hell i find this place pretty boring sometimes. it's not hard to delete a bookmark. all you ever seem to do here is be angry, i think it would be more pleasant for everyone, you included, if you didn't bother reading stuff that clearly proper stresses you out. and i'm just gonna come out and say what quite a lot of people are thinking, you're pretty much fitting the bill of the "ALL FEMINSITS ARE JUST ANGRY WOMEN" stereotype, which florence and tara (and everyone else who is a 'die-hard' feminist on here) never seem to do. they were just saying what they thought without pretty much insulting anyone else who had opposite views. acting all offended and then saying you don't give a shit when other people are offended doesn't even make sense.
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Post by Tellurium on Aug 18, 2010 10:55:15 GMT
Ah I figured that was probably it after I posted, Josh. Classic internet-misunderstanding.
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Post by Lemon Bloody Cola on Aug 18, 2010 11:16:00 GMT
^ I don't want to make this into "hey, lets all get at Sibz!" I'd be well gutted if she stopped posting here personally but I do applaud someone else but me saying that...
It does seem Sibz that your main line of counter-argument when people disagree with you is to get angry and start calling people names (usually some variant on "stupid" or "bigoted".). As stated Tara and Florence share similar views to you but express them without doing that..
I think branding all moderate opposing views to feminism as implicatly offensive (and yes.. in a world where studies show fucked up shit like a notable section of the population believe rape victims partially ask for it and such my views ARE moderate) is just going to alienate people, enforce negative stereotypes and thus harm the feminist cause.
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Post by helwin tins on Aug 18, 2010 11:26:57 GMT
meh, mainly because my browser opens all my bookmarks. i only read two threads or so each day or whatever though. besides which, all i ever really do on here anymore is make a brief post, or picture so what's the big fucking deal if i don't find it the most exciting place in the world? i was bitching on chatzy last night because i had friends there, but apparently something i created in the first fucking place is now too cliquey for me to put forward an opinion that i know people there agreed with. did i say everyone should love this place and if they don't then they're shit? no, hell i find this place pretty boring sometimes. it's not hard to delete a bookmark. all you ever seem to do here is be angry, i think it would be more pleasant for everyone, you included, if you didn't bother reading stuff that clearly proper stresses you out. and i'm just gonna come out and say what quite a lot of people are thinking, you're pretty much fitting the bill of the "ALL FEMINSITS ARE JUST ANGRY WOMEN" stereotype, which florence and tara (and everyone else who is a 'die-hard' feminist on here) never seem to do. they were just saying what they thought without pretty much insulting anyone else who had opposite views. acting all offended and then saying you don't give a shit when other people are offended doesn't even make sense. oh ffs. posts like your one are one of the reasons wb is so crap half the time, everyone ends up having to explain their motive for the chosen structure of every sentence, and the exact meaning behind their choice of words. protip: just because i'm not using hyperbole and tons of emotions in every post doesn't mean i'm being angry or bitchy.
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Post by Lemon Bloody Cola on Aug 18, 2010 11:34:27 GMT
posts like your one are one of the reasons wb is so crap half the time, everyone ends up having to explain their motive for the chosen structure of every sentence. I'm asked to do this all the time. Including in this very thread. When it happens to me I'm usually told by people here that defense isn't an excuse for being rude or inconsiderate to other posters. Not sure what I make of that... but there you go. (I'm also willing to admit I've been bitchy to Sibz in this thread)
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Post by sarah on Aug 18, 2010 11:45:03 GMT
being asked to explain what you mean by something on the internet is a fairly reasonable thing most of the time. same as a face to face conversation, if you didn't mean to be a dick but it came across that you were and you feel it is a sheer injustice, i don't see a problem
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Post by lastgoodbye on Aug 18, 2010 13:19:40 GMT
I'm going to ignore all the shit in this thread and get back on topic! I hope this can continue as a normal discussion thread. And I hope that those members who are baffled or annoyed or whatever by the discussion as it has gone so far, can continue to read the thread and follow the debate, and familiarise themselves with the different perspectives there are on this subject, without it causing any personal aggro to them. Mr politically moderate agnostic over here of course.. straddle the fence on that one! I think logically we are mixture of our genetics AND our enviroment. From my world view of "different but equal" chivalry doesn't contradict gender equality. Call it simplistic if you will but I just believe young boys should be taught to treat women respectfully; that's the crux of it for me. Yes, I believe that humans are a product of both their genetics and environment, as well. That is a fact and a given. But I don't believe that the biological differences between the sexes are so pronounced that women are physically and emotionally weaker and less capable, and in need of extra support from of men (ie. chivalry). To you, that idea may seem charming and logical, and like it's not a barrier to gender equality at all. But as a women, the idea of such 'gender differences' disadvantages ME, and I find it offensive. Think about, gender difference-but-equality either means: a. Women being restricted to jobs which are more suited to their 'naturally higher levels of caring and empathy' – ie, as a women, I'm required to work in childcare, nursing and care of the elderly, and not jobs which involve physical strength, and that's my equality. b. Women only get to work in a typically-male environment, or in important, high stress, powerful position, because they have had allowances made for them, to overcome their biology (because men are obviously more biologically suited to the job they're doing). I don't wish to be blunt, or to be a stirrer, but I really don't think it's your place, as a man, to tell us when we have equality. Also, I'd really like if you could explain in depth what your vision of a world with gender difference-but-equality looks like, and also how women are supposed to feel equal if they're born into a world which feels the need to hold their hand. Young boys should be taught to treat everyone respectfully. That's how I was brought up and that's how I behave. I agree but the social privilege males have gives them (I feel) subtly distinct responsibilties towards the opposite sex than toward their own. Women are a descriminated against group in our society and I believe it's positive if men are taught not to add to that descrimination in their actions. But.. but... NO this makes so little sense! The REASON that women are discriminated against is because, throughout history, they have been considered the weaker sex, not sensible or clever enough to vote, or drive, or work, or make decisions for herself, and because of this, men have always treated women like children, like the whole entire gender need to be looked after, by having male physical and financial control over them, be it fathers or husbands. In the 20th century the idea that maybe women are just as capable as men at looking after their own shit has crept into our collective conscience, and women are finally allowed their own job, their own property, a right to make decisions about their own bodies, and in theory, a right to walk down the street on their own. We're finally proving that oh, maybe women can be CEO's, and Prime Ministers, and firemen, and Doctors, and so forth. Finally. The idea that men have "subtly distinct responsibilities" towards women, because we're disadvantaged, and that men need to look out for us more than they would look out for another man, is so messed up and harks right back to the historical root of the problem. The idea that women need more assistance from men is the problem, it's not about to solve the problem. So yeah, the next time a big, strong, rich, independent, intellectually badass and powerful women comes strolling past you with her groceries and she is not visibly pregnant, disabled or struggling in ANY way, don't demean her by offering to 'help her out' THEREFORE taking the responsibility away from her. why are you always so angry because there's a lot to be angry about. Exactly.
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Post by lastgoodbye on Aug 18, 2010 13:27:05 GMT
...and yes, I may have semi-quoted No Doubt up there, but that's because Gwen knows the score.
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Post by sarah on Aug 18, 2010 13:38:24 GMT
that's what i think, just seems like "positive" discrimination to tell guys to go out of their way to be nice to/help out women specifically, i think it just comes back to teaching kids, male and female, to be respectful to everyone
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Post by Lemon Bloody Cola on Aug 18, 2010 13:44:29 GMT
Florence's that's a really worthwhile post in its own right but I think you're making a HUGE leap and arguing against a (unintentional) strawman en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man rather than my actual position. My position of "different but equal" certainly does not include a belief that women are incapble of powerful and high pressured jobs and so forth. Sorry but I think you're making a massive leap from my acknowledgement that the genders have some neurological and hormonal differences to everything you've said. Also I believe it's a much more complex spectrum than WOMAN ARE ALL EMPATHIC! MEN ARE ALL SYSTEMATIC and so on. I'll hopefully explain more about how I see it as you've asked when I have more energy. (sorry cop out I know! But I will ( : I'm all argued, debated out) What I worry about is women thinking the root to impowerment is showing they're just as good at the pursuit of power, agression and materialism as men have been thoughout history (whilst messing up the world in the process) and despising the qualities traditionally unfairly exclusively associated with femininity like being gentle, caring, empathic, sensitive, and so forth. I think the world needs more of that from men and women alike and less "rich, agressive and powerful" people of either gender imposing their bullshit on everyone else. I just think "old fashioned" romantic ideals have their place if people consensually agree to them, and that I don't want the social changes that will and must happen to entirely discredit rare nice things that emerge from a harsh world. p.s sorry if linking to what a strawman is seems patronising, I'm sure you knew already but I thought I'd put in their just in case anyone wasn't sure what I was getting at.
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