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Post by stationtostation on Aug 30, 2008 22:58:22 GMT
Wouldn't it be great to be naive enough to really believe in him? I mean given the state of the world today, it would be awesome to get as excited as some seem to be..
Fact remains though, even if Obama is sincere, moral and progressive (which remains to be seen), the way the world economy and corporate power and what not is set up means he probably won't make a huge difference to anything with all the good will in the world.
Still though, I do like the guy. He seems very pragmatic in a good way. In that he seems to be good at channeling a message in a way that resonates with a wide variety of people. Like I heard him give a speech about alternative energy sources, cutting the dependency on oil, being really frank about how it might mean short term hardship and sacrifices. Yet he phrased things in a way that it seemed on a surface level to almost be sort of an AMERICA, FUCK YEAH! stirring uplifting address, he is a great salesman of ideas and if it's good ideas he's selling, this is a good thing.
Basically, I'd rather have a smart, well meaning person in the White House (even if it won't change much), than not. Obviously this doesn't effect me as a non-American directly, but the health of America effects the whole world economy, and I believe the sort of centrist types like Obama, Blair and Clinton for all their faults are the most sensible and successful when it comes to making a society work economically.
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Post by stentorsrevenge on Aug 30, 2008 23:26:47 GMT
Well, I'm not voting for McCain.
I don't think that Barack is going to be some "miracle cure" for the economy, but I prefer him to his competition, without a doubt.
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Post by Lauren on Aug 31, 2008 2:36:42 GMT
I have spent the past two days trying to figure out what is going on in McCain's head. The veep pick is absurd, for one.
But hey, this could be a good thing.
I like Obama. He is not left enough for me, but he is the most left one running. Although he and Clinton shared many similar views, I preferred Obama in his delivery. His speech the other night impressed me greatly. As did how many people watched it.
I'm super excited for the election. Not just because it is the first time I am able to vote but because instead of voting for someone just because he is the better of two not so greats, like I would have done in 2004, I am actually going to vote for someone that I truly want in the White House. Of course I don't expect miracle cures. Everything is too much of a mess for that. But I'm a slight shade of optimistic about things right now. Especially with Biden as his running mate.
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Post by mimicry on Aug 31, 2008 3:42:22 GMT
I know Michelle Obama was given a bunch of shit when she said that this was the first time that she was proud of her country because the media expects you to wear a flag lapel in and wear bald eagle underwear, but I had an inkling of how she felt. Obama lets me hope about America again. As a rule, I don't really believe in things. I only believe in an individual's power to choose, and the fact that so many people are choosing him... I might be able to believe in the process again.
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Post by ihaveanego on Aug 31, 2008 19:42:44 GMT
Obama's fabulous, but Kisinich's speech had me grinning from ear to ear. WAKE UP AMERICA!
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Post by chloelovespw on Sept 1, 2008 1:12:36 GMT
ugh, anything but mccain and that fucking beauty queen homophobe librarian lady.
seriously. she's a SOCCER MOM. i mean, there's nothing wrong with soccer moms, i just wouldn't want any of the ones i know (helping) running the country.
that's my opinion. i reeeeaaaallllly want obama to win. hopefully, he does. i can't vote yet.
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Post by catmiaow on Sept 1, 2008 8:54:12 GMT
Didn't you find his "WE SHOULD ALL LEARN SPANISH" speech a few weeks ago cringeworthy, though?
He reminds me of Tony Blair. A good orator, but being an inspirational speaker doesn't deliver promises made. There's just no substance.I don't know. American politics pains me.
Joe Biden's really charismatic, much better than Hillary's soundbite speeches.
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Post by stationtostation on Sept 1, 2008 14:38:24 GMT
He reminds me of Tony Blair. A good orator, but being an inspirational speaker doesn't deliver promises made. There's just no substance.I don't know. American politics pains me. Joe Biden's really charismatic, much better than Hillary's soundbite speeches. I know what you mean, but any election in this day and age is about style as much content, if not more, it's unavoidable and you can't get elected without having that element of charisma and celebrity. I think behind the gifted public speaker, I wouldn't compare Obama to Tony Blair. Blair is the scum of the Earth in my moderate and carefully reasoned view.. basically what I'm saying being as I said a charismatic electable figure doesn't by definition make you nothing more than that. Obama is without doubt a pragmatic centrist, not especially leftist. But to be honest he's the absolute best you yanks can realistically hope for at this moment in history, and personally I would certainly pick him over Gordon Brown or David Cameron. I can see the logic behind the comparison to Tony Blair, especially when I see the reactions from our American friends on this thread. Blair's election in 1997 was certainly seen as national celebrational moment after suffering though a grim (in many ways) 18 years of Conservative rule, and I can see an end to the disastrous Bush years prompting a similar reaction over the Atlantic. If Obama wins, I really hope you all don't have to cope with the embarrassment of the political "saviour" turning out to be the kind of deceptive, rather Machiavellian figure Blair turned out to be... May I noted that judging politicians by personality isn't always the worst thing in the world. I wasn't ten years old yet when Blair became leader of the Labour party, and even then I know there was something not right about him..
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Post by Rebekah on Sept 1, 2008 15:04:07 GMT
there was something not right about him.. This is how I feel about Obama, though I can't really explain it. It could just be the fact that I live in a Republican household, but I don't know. I am not overfond of either candidate.
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Post by stationtostation on Sept 1, 2008 15:21:06 GMT
there was something not right about him.. This is how I feel about Obama, though I can't really explain it. It could just be the fact that I live in a Republican household, but I don't know. I am not overfond of either candidate. IS IT BECAUSE HE IS BLACK?!?
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Post by Rebekah on Sept 1, 2008 15:44:58 GMT
Yes. You caught me.
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Post by obeseguy on Sept 1, 2008 16:10:59 GMT
Sorry to do the whole picking-on-one-tiny-detail thing, but there's no way you can class Blair as centre/left, having privatised everything he could get his greasy little hands on, including most of the NHS. As far as I'm concerned he's as Tory as Thatcher.
As for Obama, I pretty much agree. No one should be naive enough to believe any politician's bullshit, but at least Obama's bullshit is leaning in the right direction.
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Post by stationtostation on Sept 1, 2008 16:58:37 GMT
Sorry to do the whole picking-on-one-tiny-detail thing, but there's no way you can class Blair as centre/left, having privatised everything he could get his greasy little hands on, including most of the NHS. As far as I'm concerned he's as Tory as Thatcher. Well, I class him as centrist (I never claimed he was centre-left or left wing), because of the fact he has supported "big government" polices such as government regulation of the markets via schemes like the minimum wage and elements of the new deal, and also to a degree running a "tax and spend" economy. No right winger or Tory would likely implement or agree with these polices.. Of course it's balanced out by the kind of things you mention and his attitude to foreign policy, but these things are very multi-faceted and open to debate. Ha, it must be weird for people who remember the eighties when we had an out and out right wing Tory party and an out and out left wing Labour party, damn all these sheds of grey! What is less difficult to classify however is Tony Blair's status as a COMPLETE C-UNIT.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2008 17:20:26 GMT
I'm interested to know why you have such a strong dislike for Tony Blair, Josh. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'd just like to know why you personally think he's a cunt.
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Post by stationtostation on Sept 1, 2008 18:01:26 GMT
I'm interested to know why you have such a strong dislike for Tony Blair, Josh. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'd just like to know why you personally think he's a cu nt. Well, if you look at someone like George Bush who I'm not a fan of; I think the things he believes in are both moronic and dangerous and the world would be better without him in a position of power. However, I can see that he genuinely believes that his ideology is the right thing for the American people and those in other countries effected by his foreign policy.. therefore I can at least on an abstract level have a small amount of respect for him. Blair on the other hand I don't think believed in anything but keeping himself in power for power and status' sake. I saw him as a glorified PR court jester, which is all the worse since these personal aims derailed the key objectives of a party which was (much as I personally don't agree with socialism) meant to champion the poor and vulnerable.. the part he played in the needless death of thousands of civilians in other parts of the world don't exactly endear him to me either.. I believe Obama on the other hand, genuinely wants to be a progressive leader but is aware of the limitations of his potential role and the realities of American politics and is cleverly honing his message and stance pragmatically, while retaining the essential message. Why do I see good in Obama's pragmatic centrism and bad in Blair's? It boils down to background for me, Obama has spent a lot of his life in socially responsible and positive employment pre entering politics championing the needs and rights of poor communities. If you ask me he's walked the walk...
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Post by obeseguy on Sept 1, 2008 18:40:21 GMT
Sorry to do the whole picking-on-one-tiny-detail thing, but there's no way you can class Blair as centre/left, having privatised everything he could get his greasy little hands on, including most of the NHS. As far as I'm concerned he's as Tory as Thatcher. Well, I class him as centrist (I never claimed he was centre-left or left wing), because of the fact he has supported "big government" polices such as government regulation of the markets via schemes like the minimum wage and elements of the new deal, and also to a degree running a "tax and spend" economy. No right winger or Tory would likely implement or agree with these polices.. Of course it's balanced out by the kind of things you mention and his attitude to foreign policy, but these things are very multi-faceted and open to debate. Ha, it must be weird for people who remember the eighties when we had an out and out right wing Tory party and an out and out left wing Labour party, damn all these sheds of grey! What is less difficult to classify however is Tony Blair's status as a COMPLETE C-UNIT. I meant 'centre/left' as in centre or left. And I'm not any kind of expert on it, but as far as I'm aware an awful lot of his 'public spending' benefited private business far more than the general public, with all this PPP and PFI and other vaguely misleading acronyms. Can't argue with the minimum wage though, that was pretty good. But in general, I reckon he was being sly and underhand, using the New Labour title to get away with being far more right-wing than any Labour leader has the right to be. Also, I think it's worth saying that, though he was the PM, not everything that his Government did was down to him personally. I'm sure Gordon has just as much to answer for. Also, who names their child Gordon? Honestly? Seriously? Gordon?
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Post by stationtostation on Sept 1, 2008 18:47:51 GMT
I kinda look at it a different way, I mean this Labour government, I have to grit my teeth and admit HAS done some good things, with the minimum wage being the obvious one, but really up until recently they've delivered a solid prosperous economy and low-unemployment. Which leads to the "lesser of two evils" voting pattern, because as vile as Blair is, people know or at least knew that they are safer under Labour than the Tories.
The upcoming recession has really threw a spanner in that one though.. I really don't believe the likely Tory government coming up in 2009/10 well cope well with the times ahead.. I don't think this country is going to be much fun to live in to put it mildly.
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Post by mimicry on Sept 2, 2008 3:06:38 GMT
I'm interested to know why you have such a strong dislike for Tony Blair, Josh. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'd just like to know why you personally think he's a cu nt. Well, if you look at someone like George Bush who I'm not a fan of; I think the things he believes in are both moronic and dangerous and the world would be better without him in a position of power. However, I can see that he genuinely believes that his ideology is the right thing for the American people and those in other countries effected by his foreign policy.. therefore I can at least on an abstract level have a small amount of respect for him. No. He believes that his policies are what's best for his friends in big business.
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Post by stationtostation on Sept 2, 2008 12:13:54 GMT
Well, if you look at someone like George Bush who I'm not a fan of; I think the things he believes in are both moronic and dangerous and the world would be better without him in a position of power. However, I can see that he genuinely believes that his ideology is the right thing for the American people and those in other countries effected by his foreign policy.. therefore I can at least on an abstract level have a small amount of respect for him. No. He believes that his policies are what's best for his friends in big business. I think they are a lot of callous, "evi|" people in the Republican party, I don't think Bush though, I just think he's a misguided fool.
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Post by catmiaow on Sept 2, 2008 16:18:11 GMT
The republicans are hardly different from the conservatives..."Evil" isn't really appropriate I don't think.
Also, rewind to 1997 and Blair was much more earnest and heartfelt that Obama is today. He had fluffy hair and a nice manner.
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