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Post by Lemon Bloody Cola on Sept 8, 2010 14:56:50 GMT
haha fierly individualistic and suspicious of academia and the "cultural elite"? If it wasn't for my effete foppery and my lack of contempt for the poor I might just be an American at heart..
You make it sound like a nation of inverted snobs.. a distate for snobbery and elitism is a very healthy thing but I know from experience you need to avoid falling into that trap if you're focused along those lines.
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Post by mimicry on Sept 9, 2010 0:42:29 GMT
I can understand being wary of academia, but here it mostly turns into more of a... I'm not sure how to phrase it, but it's like a hostility towards reasoning.
It's been interesting since I'm from Baltimore which is generally very liberal. State politics mostly involve infighting amongst the Democrats. But now that I've moved further north and I'm not around any sort of big city (the biggest thing about Binghamton is the university) I see a lot more Don't Tread on Me flags flying around. I'm not sure what's up yet.
Also, this
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Post by Xteenuh on Sept 9, 2010 5:33:52 GMT
I used to be alright with Glenn Beck until suddenly he got this crazy idea that he is America's Messiah and he is now a major poo-head. Also most "experts" in the media here seem to be poo-heads as well. The news media itself is mostly a poo-head, as is probably Congress. The extreme Religious Right is a poo-head and my uncle is one of them and I have to listen to his poo-headed brainwashed shpeahl on politics every time I see him and it makes me want to die. I don't really get Obama - he seems secretive and sketchy to me. Sarah Palin is hilarious and would probably be a gass at parties. That's all I really have to say about that. Just remember to wish your fellow American a happy National Burn a Koran Day on Saturday!
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Post by tarantella on Sept 9, 2010 15:05:44 GMT
I got through 11 minutes of this video before the repulsion forced me to turn it off. Soooo creepy! :( The spiraling escalation of hatred is just terrifying. I'm neither an immigrant nor a Muslim but I would feel so unsafe being in the same space as those people. So much of what everyone wrote above is why I identify myself as a Bay Area resident and Californian first, rather than as an American citizen, though clearly I am that, too. I have very little sense of patriotism. All I can say is that the U.S. is a ginormous nation-state that encompasses a very wide range of diverse peoples and belief systems.
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Post by lastgoodbye on Sept 9, 2010 15:19:47 GMT
The presenter in that video is so awesome that he managed to spend all day there listening to people and not saying hardly anything himself - it was very interesting.
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Post by helwin tins on Sept 9, 2010 16:50:17 GMT
that video is sad. those people are so fucking terrified and ignorant.
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Post by Rhiflect on Sept 9, 2010 16:58:14 GMT
Just remember to wish your fellow American a happy National Burn a Koran Day on Saturday! If there was ever a time and a place for a Wolfboard meet up, it would be at this fascinating, totally respectful and brilliant idea of a day!
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Post by mimicry on Sept 10, 2010 3:36:44 GMT
I managed to watch the video to the very end. I don't know why; perhaps some sort of sense of civic duty? But the last 30 seconds are hilarious because there's a dude dressed as Benjamin Franklin talking on a cell phone.
I don't mind identifying as an American. I like all the idealistic stuff, like the Bill of Rights. However, sometimes I am tempted to burn it all down and start some sort of anarchist socialist collective co-op instead. Because that's a reasonable plan.
Maybe I just like being an American because I like Neoclassical architecture and men wearing frock coats.
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Post by allison on Sept 11, 2010 2:17:30 GMT
i didn't watch the video, because i've probably seen it before - or at least something like it. extremist americans saying stupid things. certainly there is a percentage of americans who believe that shit - but what of it? does the video explain *WHY* they think/believe the shit they hear? i don't think these videos help anything. they don't help the world understand america in all its diversity, they just help discredit the country or a percentage of the country as a whole. and i don't think that's very safe at all - look at what happened in afghanistan: www.nytimes.com/2010/09/11/world/asia/11afghan.html?_r=1&hpwregarding obama's administration: i'm not sure how apparent it is that being a politician these days is VERY VERY VERY FUCKING HARD. i'm giving obama the benefit of the doubt and saying he's making the best of what he's been given (two lame wars, a politically divided country, religious fundamentalists, etc etc etc). i really believe that all he said in his campaign was what he truly and idealistically believed. the contradictions between what he said and what he's done, i think, are largely due to the dis-functionality of politics, by the previous administration, and by people outside of his control.
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Post by Xteenuh on Sept 11, 2010 16:32:42 GMT
Just remember to wish your fellow American a happy National Burn a Koran Day on Saturday! If there was ever a time and a place for a Wolfboard meet up, it would be at this fascinating, totally respectful and brilliant idea of a day! Hah! Apparently the event got canceled. Good thing, although I'm really curious as to how that would've went down... it would have been interesting to observe. But this is mad funny: Also I too enjoyed Ben Franklin on the cell phone. Mostly because the fact that he said "People are videotaping and it's embarrassing" was a really great summary of that entire video. I mean, I understand where these ideas are coming from, but its so sad to see some people like this who are on the right side of the spectrum be so incredibly misinformed and mislead and just overall being illogical and letting fear take over. I do think we have to remember that some people on the left do this as well from the other side of things, but here in America it just seems that its worse on the right because people are getting so sucked in by these more extreme media hosts such as Glenn Beck etc. Plus this fear of Islam and terrorism and protecting the American is such a strong outside force causing this but its really unfortunate how people handle it. It gives right-winged people a bad rep, I'd say I'm pretty moderate myself, probably more left-leaning in social matters but even when I express some of my right-leaning ideas I just think of these people and it makes me feel disgusted. The stupid people always speak the loudest.
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Post by lastgoodbye on Sept 12, 2010 11:40:48 GMT
If there was ever a time and a place for a Wolfboard meet up, it would be at this fascinating, totally respectful and brilliant idea of a day! Hah! Apparently the event got canceled. Good thing, although I'm really curious as to how that would've went down... it would have been interesting to observe. How would it have been interesting to observe in ANY way? The hundreds of thousands of deeply offended Muslims who would have an instant justification to be more scared of / angry at America? All the people who would have died in the riots and attacks which would have happened in the aftermath? Oh yeah, that would have been awesome to watch play out from our armchairs. Such a shame it got cancelled.
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Post by allison on Sept 12, 2010 14:35:16 GMT
Hah! Apparently the event got canceled. Good thing, although I'm really curious as to how that would've went down... it would have been interesting to observe. How would it have been interesting to observe in ANY way? The hundreds of thousands of deeply offended Muslims who would have an instant justification to be more scared of / angry at America? All the people who would have died in the riots and attacks which would have happened in the aftermath? Oh yeah, that would have been awesome to watch play out from our armchairs. Such a shame it got cancelled. you mean that in present tense, Clare. Cause there WERE riots and demonstrations and people killed (see my link in the previous post). It would have been worse no doubt if the Koran burning event had gone on as planned, no doubt, but the damage was done by simply proposing it and publicizing it. So frustrating.
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Post by lastgoodbye on Sept 12, 2010 14:53:11 GMT
I'm Florence But yes, you're completely right, actually.
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Post by Lemon Bloody Cola on Sept 12, 2010 15:20:41 GMT
On the other hand much as we might disagree with the Koran burning or the motives behind the individuals doing it, I believe in supporting the freedom of speech/expression that gives them the right to do it. If we let people scare us out of supporting those rights via threats of violence well.. slippery slope. This wasn't the motive of the people planning this specific incident but burning the Koran has become a powerful symbol of freedom of speech due to the very real threats of violence and even murder that exist among the fundamentalist Islamic world towards those who critique Islam (which lets remember is an ideology not a race) see; Salman Rushdie, the Belgian cartoonists, South Park's Matt Stone and Trey Parker etc
Also some wolfboarders would no doubt support the mass burning of any other book with as much homophobia, misogyny and intolerance as the Koran (or the Bible...).
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Post by allison on Sept 12, 2010 16:50:09 GMT
re. koran burning: i think there are more respectful ways to express issues one may have with certain aspects of a major religion. less bigoted ways, more responsible and thoughtful ways. it may be a symbol of free speech, but that doesn't make it "good"
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Post by Lemon Bloody Cola on Sept 12, 2010 17:22:43 GMT
re. koran burning: i think there are more respectful ways to express issues one may have with certain aspects of a major religion. less bigoted ways, more responsible and thoughtful ways. it may be a symbol of free speech, but that doesn't make it "good" I never said it was just that it should be people's right to do so if they please and no one should face violence for expressing an opinion no matter how distastefully done or even vile that opinion is. ps shit SO SORRY for accidently deleting the first part of that
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Post by allison on Sept 12, 2010 17:47:09 GMT
true. but. . . it seems to be sort of inciting violence - the act of burning something?
haha, i was a little worried at first - i thought i wrote a longer post (& about memory loss), but was i mistaken??! lol. but no worries, it was off topic and rambling, i'll just put the relevent part here:
sorry, florence! i was sleepy and confused. haha.
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Post by tarantella on Sept 12, 2010 18:57:02 GMT
Yes, it absolutely does incite violence towards people who are Muslim or "look Muslim." Let's not forget all the acts of violence against brown people after 9-11, many of whom weren't even Muslim or from the 'Middle East'; mass deportations, profiling, detaining, targeting... It's so clear that hate speech fuels violence. This wasn't the motive of the people planning this specific incident but burning the Koran has become a powerful symbol of freedom of speech due to the very real threats of violence and even murder that exist among the fundamentalist Islamic world towards those who critique Islam (which lets remember is an ideology not a race) see; Salman Rushdie, the Belgian cartoonists, South Park's Matt Stone and Trey Parker etc I really do not understand this at all, I'm afraid. This isn't a philosophical discussion people are having, Josh -- they aren't just criticizing aspects of an 'ideology,' they are targeting a vulnerable group of people. Also? It is thoroughly naive to believe that Islamophobia doesn't go hand in hand with racism; see above about targeting brown people. I can't even go into how acts of hate are a symbol of freedom or how we need to be worried about the well-being of Salman Rushdie... that's just too much for me. Hate speech is protected in the U.S. by the First Amendment, with the workplace being the only exception that I'm aware of. I know there are other countries that prohibit hate speech, and sometimes I wonder if that wouldn't be a good policy for the U.S. to implement...
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Post by Lemon Bloody Cola on Sept 12, 2010 20:29:21 GMT
In England we consider illegal incitement or hate speech to be along the overt lines of "hey! those black people go beat them up/kill them". I know in America the burning of symbols has a particularly powerful resonance, look how taboo it is to burn the stars and stripes for example.. they say where they burn books today they'll burn people tomorrow and so forth so I see your argument. Though It wouldn't surprise you to hear I oppose any limitations on freedom of speech or free expression, hateful or otherwise. Simply because I don't believe or trust anyone to say where the "hate speech" line should be drawn cos subjectivity blahblah..
I'm not in anyway agreeing with the mindset of the people who planned this mass burning, it's very likely there was racist and bigoted intent there... you're right that Muslims in the US and UK are a vulnerable minority, but you have to remember Islam as a faith has a lot of power too, in a lot of the world it IS the power. Therefore I have no problem with people like the South Park writers or the youtube atheist community burning paper (metaphorically or otherwise) in order to stick two fingers up and defy the kind of fascists who targeted Salman Rushdie and who run theocratic dictatorships in places like Iran. Any high profile critc of Islam is also a vulnerable person risking violence and death. While the huge majority of Muslims are not this way inclined, those threatening and killing those who oppose their religion/ideology can not be tolerated or given concessions because that is textbook fascism. Whatever colour someone's skin or what God they worship fascism is fascism is fascism.
I was making no moral or subjective judgment when I said that burning the Koran - like burning the American flag - whatever you or I think of the act or the motives behind it is a powerful act of defiance. It's just a statement of fact. I assume no one here believes flag burning should be illegal? Also I've read all the holy books and all of them feature ideas that I wouldn't mind setting light to and I'm agnostic and sympathetic to religion.
For balance's sake can I say that I also consider the banning of the Burka in some European countries a fascist act.
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Post by allison on Sept 12, 2010 20:29:32 GMT
^ they should make it illegal to preach hate AS your work, haha. Shut down some commentators on cable news, other media, etc. Lol
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